BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation

[jall55]

My daughter has dropped foreshore geese with her 20 bore shooting steel . I do not see your point from a practical stand point regards the 20 bore . BTW tungsten handloads in the 20 kill ever bit as well and geese as high if not a tad further than 10 bores with lead .
"IF" CIP dropped the whole velocity thing and just stuck with pressure none home loaders would have easy access to faster and better steel loads .
I do not think we have much choice with the 410 but small shot bismuth keeping ranges pretty much as they have been with lead .
One thing is for sure , the alternative is not going shooting ! Folks say " cost is too high " Yet very, very few do the bulk of a seasons shooting spending more on ammo than fuel when they go shooting . I note very few turn up in a little economic car , so costs are obviously not as important as is made out regards ammo .

I would be interested to see a 20 v a 10 to be honest

 

[Bowland blades]

I would be interested to see a 20 v a 10 to be honest

With TSS the twenty would quite likely win that one . But not with steel or lead ( only from the point that the 10 bore wasn't also loaded with TSS though !) . My ten bore days are over now though sold them all off this last 12 months as I left my local club and that particular dog sadly died .
there isn't much we cannot do with 36 gram steel or 42 gram in 2s, number 1, BB or BBB steel ( the last only in a 3 1/2" ) . Indeed i might have done more Geese with number 3 when out for Duck

 

[enfieldspares]

The video is very disingenuous. The guy on the left and the guy on the right presumably BOTH know that replacing an old set of barrels with a new set of barrels is not the same as a five minute off and on job as with a tyre in a tyre fitter. For a Purdey, a Boss, a Holland and Holland new barrels are of the order of £30,000 and also in many cases the fit of the original fore-end wood to the underside of the new barrels is never as close as it was. And the guy on the left also presumably knows that the value of "best" English guns has collapsed in the UK?

 

[Mike L]

Is fenlandstalker now user00039?

 

[Bowland blades]

The video is very disingenuous. The guy on the left and the guy on the right presumably BOTH know that replacing an old set of barrels with a new set of barrels is not the same as a five minute off and on job as with a tyre in a tyre fitter. For a Purdey, a Boss, a Holland and Holland new barrels are of the order of £30,000 and also in many cases the fit of the original fore-end wood to the underside of the new barrels is never as close as it was. And the guy on the left also presumably knows that the value of "best" English guns has collapsed in the UK?

If you can afford a 30k gun and fund the days you would use such a thing on , you could easy afford custom built bismuth loads !

 

[VSS]

Is fenlandstalker now user00039?

Looks like he's a gonner.

 

[StephenToast]

I have not used lead for any of my shooting - game, rough, wildfowling, pigeons and stalking - for nearly five years now. I don't miss it. I use copper (with added zinc) for my deer rifle, and steel or Bioammo Blue for my shotguns. For me, these alternatives work very well. I cannot tell the difference in the field. And the additional cost is a tiny fraction of the wider costs associated with shooting - indeed, with everyday life.

I feel sorry for those who have been persuaded by the few that the future of shooting depends on using lead ammunition. It certainly doesn't - which is just as well.

I haven't used lead shot in any of my shooting since it was banned for wildfowl. If I can kill ducks below the tideline with steel I really can't understand why people think they won't be able to shoot pheasants? My guess is that when they are reared each pheasant is issued with a flak jacket before they go into the release pen.

Most of the people who complain about non-lead rifle or shotgun ammo have never actually used it.

 

[enfieldspares]

If you can afford a 30k gun and fund the days you would use such a thing on , you could easy afford custom built bismuth loads !

But that's the thing. The gun itself isn't worth £30,000. There are "best" London guns going through the auction houses at around £3,000 with perfectly good (with lead) original barrels. And others that the present owner has paid nothng for as they are family guns. The gun if rebarrelled won't be worth £30,000 and if sleeved (so no longer original barrels) won't then even be worth £3,000. The fact is there are many who do not know how the market works with regard to such guns that make comments such as above. Yes bismuth could be used on formal driven days. But for simulated game days or just practice on clays out of season it would be cost prohibitive.

 

[Greenmist]

So why is lead shotgun shot considered to be so toxic that it's a threat to civilisation as we know it but the lead in airgun and rimfire ammunition not so? It just doesn't make sense!

Volume, I'd imagine, compare the amount of shot during a drive to the amount of bullets used to keep the same area vermin free

 

[timbrayford]

My daughter has dropped foreshore geese with her 20 bore shooting steel . I do not see your point from a practical stand point regards the 20 bore . BTW tungsten handloads in the 20 kill ever bit as well and geese as high if not a tad further than 10 bores with lead .
"IF" CIP dropped the whole velocity thing and just stuck with pressure none home loaders would have easy access to faster and better steel loads .
I do not think we have much choice with the 410 but small shot bismuth keeping ranges pretty much as they have been with lead .
One thing is for sure , the alternative is not going shooting ! Folks say " cost is too high " Yet very, very few do the bulk of a seasons shooting spending more on ammo than fuel when they go shooting . I note very few turn up in a little economic car , so costs are obviously not as important as is made out regards ammo .

Without question tungsten is ballistically superior but just like steel it can wreck barrels and I totally agree that the foreshore along with marshland is the only place for steel shot, although I'd be uncomfortable using it in a gun that would cost more than a few hundred pounds to replace with new. Incidentally I was in the local gun shop last week, they had a miroku with a massive ring bulge 10" from the breech caused by steel shot.

 

[Terry2016]

Do they, I've not seen it.
I've not seen an increase in wildfowl since the 90's ban, I was expecting to see millions by now.
I think I see more dead birds from vehicle collisions and cats than ingesting lead shot.

Haven't they just allowed use of nicitinoids again in the UK?
What are the effects to micro biology when slurry is sprayed on land? What happens when it gets in the water courses?

At Snailbeach in Shropshire there are disused lead mines with contaminated silt beds from pumping out the mines when they worked.
The lead content in them beds is off the scale.
Guess what....they are teeming with life.
I'd love to get these dam experts by the neck and drag them there to ask them " explain that big shot and no, there is no effing grant in it for you"!

The list goes on and on. It's a grand hypocracy
.
Go to a hospital, you will find lead. Look in your car, you will find lead.
Go to a power station, lead
Cadmium, everywhere.
Mercury nearly in every mouth of Britain.
Radio active particles sprinkled everywhere.
Palladium and rhodium emitted from every vehicle.
But you shooting lead, you bastards!!
Pathetic.
The narrative here is the well to do just want to shoot hundreds of birds a day and by arse licking keep the status quo.
Us minions should just consider ourselves lucky and shut up and do as you are told!
You guess the two closing words.....!

Yes they do, why would you see it ? do some research then all will become clear

 

[Terry2016]

Copper wont damage rifles , think about it as its only the drive bands in contact and we shoot copper jacketed lead through our deer rifles also .
shotgun cartridges have a much thinner / less tough shotcup and Steel shot will cut through the wad unless you use steel shot specific loads with thicker / tougher shotcups . Steel also generates higher speeds in the barrel and higher pressures .
Bismuth shot is better for light game guns 410 and 28 and 2.5" 12 bore chambers
Personally i have taken the risk with none steel proof more modern 10 bores with 3 1/2" chambers and 12 more magnums . I also make most of my own and break CIP speed limits but abide to the pressure . In America ( where they have used steel for longer and had lead restrictions longer ) They produce the type of loads i make but our dealers cannot bring the real fast stuff in , unless it conforms to CIP limits

Copper does and will ware a barrel faster than the lead alternative, however that doe snot mean it will damage your gun overnight.

Steel shot is seated in a cup designed to keep it away from the barrel wall.

There have been many videos made of steel shot loaded into cartridges without a shot cup and fired several times the result drum roll..... no damage.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Shooting Times article in latest issue relating to BASC's consultation response available to read online here:

No logic to lead ban - ShootingUK

Following a call for evidence and two public consultations, the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) will soon complete its review of lead ammunition and make its recommendations to the Defra secretary for consideration. However, before doing so the HSE needs to take account of an estimated 5,000...

www.shootinguk.co.uk

 

[Bowland blades]

Copper does and will ware a barrel faster than the lead alternative, however that doe snot mean it will damage your gun overnight.

Steel shot is seated in a cup designed to keep it away from the barrel wall.

There have been many videos made of steel shot loaded into cartridges without a shot cup and fired several times the result drum roll..... no damage.

Firstly those who say no damage have not taken a close look at their forcing cones, chokes or even the rest of the barrel . It most certainly does damage barrels without a shotcup and even using lead designed plastic shot-cups are not adequate! Copper bullets run on raised bands not the full contact of a jacketed type lead bullet and remember copper and copper alloys are actually used to protect from steel to steel contact in things like car engines we even use copper slip grease, try some fine steel filings in your car bearings and see how that works out for you - eek!

 

[Terry2016]

Firstly those who say no damage have not taken a close look at their forcing cones, chokes or even the rest of the barrel . It most certainly does damage barrels without a shotcup and even using lead designed plastic shot-cups are not adequate! Copper bullets run on raised bands not the full contact of a jacketed type lead bullet and remember copper and copper alloys are actually used to protect from steel to steel contact in things like car engines we even use copper slip grease, try some fine steel filings in your car bearings and see how that works out for you - eek!

And yet i have shot thousands and thousands of steel shot through my guns and no damage ... as have many thousands of wildfowlers,. and yet all other guns are going to get damaged cmon stop it now...

 

[CookM]

Its poxy granary bread and pork scratchings doing the damage.
Trust me.

The Society and College of Radiographers informed BASC that to their knowledge there have been no reported incidents of harm caused by ingested steel shot during an MRI scan in the UK. However, the steel shot could cause image distortion during the MRI scan and for that reason if you think you have ingested steel shot before your scan you should let the staff in the MRI department know before your appointment.

Also, no issues reported by UK wildfowlers, or game shooters in USA and Denmark and many other places using steel shot for game shooting for many years as regards broken teeth, so let's put that urban myth to bed also

 

[Bowland blades]

And yet i have shot thousands and thousands of steel shot through my guns and no damage ... as have many thousands of wildfowlers,. and yet all other guns are going to get damaged cmon stop it now...

did you actually read my post ? because i think with not just posting the full thing you give a totally false impression of WHAT I WAS ACTUALLY SAYING OVERALL ! i have been a member of a number of wildfowling clubs along the North West of England .
older guns designed for lead have shorter forcing cones and they are prone to damage with steel . 12 bore super magnums have to be back bored or they will bulge , the ten bores do not require this . I have been pretty much exclusively shooting steel through my shotguns for well over a decade 20 bore , 12 bore std and super magnums , a few 10 bores . I load for them shop steel loads in the Uk have to stay within a lower pressure via CIP rules but in the states only pressure matters . for my own steel ammo i load to the allowable CIP on pressure , yet exceed the velocity limits .
Please take note of the whole post and understand what i was saying as a whole , don't get selective or your the only person who is going to look foolish , after i reply . Context of the whole post is pretty paramount in these matters !

 

[Terry2016]

did you actually read my post ? because i think with not just posting the full thing you give a totally false impression of WHAT I WAS ACTUALLY SAYING OVERALL ! i have been a member of a number of wildfowling clubs along the North West of England .
older guns designed for lead have shorter forcing cones and they are prone to damage with steel . 12 bore super magnums have to be back bored or they will bulge , the ten bores do not require this . I have been pretty much exclusively shooting steel through my shotguns for well over a decade 20 bore , 12 bore std and super magnums , a few 10 bores . I load for them shop steel loads in the Uk have to stay within a lower pressure via CIP rules but in the states only pressure matters . for my own steel ammo i load to the allowable CIP on pressure , yet exceed the velocity limits .
Please take note of the whole post and understand what i was saying as a whole , don't get selective or your the only person who is going to look foolish , after i reply . Context of the whole post is pretty paramount in these matters !

older guns designed for lead have shorter forcing cones and they are prone to damage with steel - no they are not use the correct cartridge length

12 bore super magnums have to be back bored or they will bulge - no they do not... good lord you can use standard steel, or HP steel. where are you getting this information ?

In the UK our cartridges are loaded in line with CIP guidance, now, maybe you should stop giving poor advice.
Steel shot cartridges are loaded with "a shot cup", so its no point saying it will damage your barrel without one.
You also stated plastic shot cups are inadequate , they are fine, I have shot thousands and my gun like many other wildfowlers guns are fine.
Copper is harder than lead, and is projected faster (in most cases) to give the required expansion, this will wear your barrel quicker... than the lead equivalent.

 

[Liveonce]

In the UK our cartridges are loaded in line with CIP guidance, now, maybe you should stop giving poor advice.
Steel shot cartridges are loaded with "a shot cup", so its no point saying it will damage your barrel without one.
You also stated plastic shot cups are inadequate , they are fine, I have shot thousands and my gun like many other wildfowlers guns are fine.
Copper is harder than lead, and is projected faster (in most cases) to give the required expansion, this will wear your barrel quicker... than the lead equivalent.

Even with a shot cup the risk of barrel damage is always present in the forcing cone area and at the choke.
Which is why CIP regulations state maximum choke and shot sizes.

The risk may be small especially with strong single use plastic wads, ensuring biodegradable wads can perform the same has and is one of the challenges of making biodegradable wads, ie a material and product, the wad that can fulfill the role of both biodegradable and protects the barrel at high pressure and heat.

 

[25 Sharps]

My daughter has dropped foreshore geese with her 20 bore shooting steel . I do not see your point from a practical stand point regards the 20 bore . BTW tungsten handloads in the 20 kill ever bit as well and geese as high if not a tad further than 10 bores with lead .
"IF" CIP dropped the whole velocity thing and just stuck with pressure none home loaders would have easy access to faster and better steel loads .
I do not think we have much choice with the 410 but small shot bismuth keeping ranges pretty much as they have been with lead .
One thing is for sure , the alternative is not going shooting ! Folks say " cost is too high " Yet very, very few do the bulk of a seasons shooting spending more on ammo than fuel when they go shooting . I note very few turn up in a little economic car , so costs are obviously not as important as is made out regards ammo .

I drive a company vehicle so only pay tax on fuel, which is covered in 1/2 a dozen tanks of diesel.

I do a lot of ratting with a .410, bismuth will be too costly for that. Similarly I shoot a lot of pigeons and steel, which should be cheaper than lead, is more costly which means I’ll be out less.

PS does your daughter have a black dog too?