BDS Statement on Stag Hunting

[nun_hunter]

I’m enjoying the argument about how to determine whether the hounds are selective.

I think you could test it within a single pack, fairly easily. Full PM of all deer killed after hound hunts. And then shoot an equal number of randomly chosen deer from the same area, and PM those. Compare. All variables controlled for bar method of killing. Sample size would not need to be big if there were genuine differences. 10 of each would probably do it. Might even get away with 6.

Assuming the hounds chose which deer to chase rather than the Hunt master having any control over calling them off deer and leaving them on others. I doubt the hounds are selecting deer to chase based on antler/trophy size.

 

[VSS]

I’m enjoying the argument about how to determine whether the hounds are selective.

I think you could test it within a single pack, fairly easily. Full PM of all deer killed after hound hunts. And then shoot an equal number of randomly chosen deer from the same area, and PM those. Compare. All variables controlled for bar method of killing. Sample size would not need to be big if there were genuine differences. 10 of each would probably do it. Might even get away with 6.

You would have to alternate between killing methods, not do all of one and then all of the other.

 

[Mungo]

Assuming the hounds chose which deer to chase rather than the Hunt master having any control over calling them off deer and leaving them on others. I doubt the hounds are selecting deer to chase based on antler/trophy size.

Well yes.

But let’s indulge the delusion

 

[willie_gunn]

I doubt the hounds are selecting deer to chase based on antler/trophy size.

Prove it!

 

[Lancaster]

To those that have knowledge of the 3 packs, how many deer do they kill each year, my initially guess would be around 150 - 200 max?
Given that the hunts will have legal access to umpteen thousand acres, and probably trespass on an equal amount of land, that doesn't seem a particularly efficient method of controlling deer numbers?

 

[shakey jake]

Theres nothing more cruel than a shotgun

a shot gun cant be cruel or humane, its an inamate object

 

[Hornet]

I can only refer the Honourable Member to my original comment.

That said, I do understand what Hornet is attempting to communicate and indeed align with the BDS wider position that involves deer hunting management with a rifle but it’s just note going to happen.

K

And I thank the honourable member for his reply, rather than "attempting" to communicate, I think I make a coherent and valid point, each and every organisation that has the slightest sympathy for killing animals, for what ever reason will be viewed by our blue haired pulse eating friends as the enemy, irrespective of what form of fieldsports you are involved in, we need a united front, and at the grave risk of repeating myself.... Not one branch of country sports maligning another, even if personally you find another man/woman's sport unpalatable.

 

[Nimrod1960]

What part of Bateson’s findings do you think are wrong?

Not the interpretation of them - merely the raw scientific findings?

Just wondering which organisations paid for allot of his no doubt serious scientific efforts.

 

[Mungo]

Just wondering which organisations paid for allot of his no doubt serious scientific efforts.

Deer study was commissioned and financed by the National Trust.

The rest of his work was funded by all sorts of organisations, though primarily UK Research Councils.

 

[Apthorpe]

Deer study was commissioned and financed by the National Trust.

...because research on politically contentious animal welfare science is absolutely part of the business of a charity which exists "To look after Places of Historic Interest or Natural Beauty permanently for the benefit of the nation across England, Wales and Northern Ireland"
The National Trust has never been known to deviate from its duty and mis-spend charitable money on virtue signalling .

 

[Nimrod1960]

Deer study was commissioned and financed by the National Trust.

The rest of his work was funded by all sorts of organisations, though primarily UK Research Councils.

Thanks for that.

I am sure we all have our own opinion re NT.

Nothing for PETA or the RSPCA then?

 

[Lancaster]

And I thank the honourable member for his reply, rather than "attempting" to communicate, I think I make a coherent and valid point, each and every organisation that has the slightest sympathy for killing animals, for what ever reason will be viewed by our blue haired pulse eating friends as the enemy, irrespective of what form of fieldsports you are involved in, we need a united front, and at the grave risk of repeating myself.... Not one branch of country sports maligning another, even if personally you find another man/woman's sport unpalatable.

So, if I've got this right.
We all have to support things that we feel uneasy about or disagree with because the folk who disagree with all field sports, deer management, pest control, angling, game shooting, wildfowling etc tar us all with the same brush?
Surely, if individuals who engage in those activities don't voice their concerns about certain practices then the antis are right?

 

[Acm]

This is a tricky one, on the one hand I think it is wrong and my thoughts align with the BDS, but then stop and think about it properly. Am I also against fox hunting? No, I don’t partake but I do enjoy seeing and and hearing a hunt in full gallop.

What right to life does a stag have that a fox doesn’t? Or a pheasant for instance. Is it any worse than high bird shooting with the high ratio of wounded birds. Ever been on safari? I’ve seen lions bring down a buffalo only to leave most of the meat.
Life’s cruel, and unfair, and these days there seems to be a lot of time given for larger factions to tell smaller factions they are wrong for enjoying something niche. It doesn’t matter until we are the ones in the firing line, why should we be enjoying killing deer for fun, when it could be done by paid professionals who do it as a job?

I still don’t know how I feel about it. But it is surprising to hear how many people who kill deer for fun are against dogs chasing deer for fun.

 

[Hornet]

So, if I've got this right.
We all have to support things that we feel uneasy about or disagree with because the folk who disagree with all field sports, deer management, pest control, angling, game shooting, wildfowling etc tar us all with the same brush?
Surely, if individuals who engage in those activities don't voice their concerns about certain practices then the antis are right?

Yes without doubt, we are all tarred with the same brush by our opponents, we are simply bloodthirsty meat eaters out on a jolly enjoying killing animals, I'm sorry if this comes as a shock, but it is an inalienable truth, divide and conquer is a strategy as old as the hills, and by demeaning another country sport, we play right into our enemies hands, remember, mere dislike of something is not a reason for prohibition.

 

[AGR]

The dogs don't select the hunted deer...The harbourer does that.

Hounds Keith, hounds!

 

[Tom_Ov]

Once again with respect, we will have to agree to disagree. In this instance only proven fact can constitute evidence, rather than the opinions or beliefs of those involved in an activity. Likewise my reading of the BDS paper tells me just that they find themselves unable to support hunting with hounds as an appropriate method of controlling deer numbers. That is a far cry from calling to ban it and semantics do not come into the matter.

Charles, can I ask - are you the Charles Smith Jones who is currently the BDS technical adviser?

 

[Lancaster]

Yes without doubt, we are all tarred with the same brush by our opponents, we are simply bloodthirsty meat eaters out on a jolly enjoying killing animals, I'm sorry if this comes as a shock, but it is an inalienable truth, divide and conquer is a strategy as old as the hills, and by demeaning another country sport, we play right into our enemies hands, remember, mere dislike of something is not a reason for prohibition.

So fears of field sports being restricted, licensed or banned are then groundless, as it is just the Antis disliking it?

I fear you have a very stereotypical view of those that oppose field sports.
They are not all "blue haired, pulse eating friends", they are the metropolitan masses who have no concept of what happens outside of their comfortable urban surroundings, or they are those that previously lived in that environment and have subsequently moved to a rural idyll and found out that it smells, it's noisy and people engage in activities that are completely alien to them.

 

[Ratel]

Can someone please explain to me why it's permissable to hunt rabbits with dogs and not hares or foxes with hounds. Also why it's ok to kill rats with dogs or slow death poisons. Is a rat not a mammal capable of feeling as much if not more stress and pain from poisoning as an animal hunted by hounds. It is either ok to hunt mammals with hounds and to condemn other animals to a slow lingering death, or not. After all a rat or rabbit has the same brain as other mammals. Just playing the Devil's disciple here.

 

[Mungo]

...because research on politically contentious animal welfare science is absolutely part of the business of a charity which exists "To look after Places of Historic Interest or Natural Beauty permanently for the benefit of the nation across England, Wales and Northern Ireland"
The National Trust has never been known to deviate from its duty and mis-spend charitable money on virtue signalling .

My understanding is that they were pressured into it because of the hunting on their land.

They were receiving mounting public criticism for allowing the hunt on their land. They were also internally split (very acrimoniously) over the issue. They decided on getting the study done as way to get data that would allow them to make an informed decision. I don’t think anyone can criticise a landowner for doing what they can to get more information in order to try to make management decisions.

Bateson himself did not anticipate the strength of feeling on either side, and I vividly remember him lecturing about it when I was an undergrad. People on both sides accused him of every form of bias and fraud, threatening and harassing him and his family.

It’s worth bearing in mind that the study was done with the full cooperation of the Devon and Somerset Staghounds, and the Quantock Staghounds.

 

[Mungo]

Can someone please explain to me why it's permissable to hunt rabbits with dogs and not hares or foxes with hounds. Also why it's ok to kill rats with dogs or slow death poisons. Is a rat not a mammal capable of feeling as much if not more stress and pain from poisoning as an animal hunted by hounds. It is either ok to hunt mammals with hounds and to condemn other animals to a slow lingering death, or not. After all a rat or rabbit has the same brain as other mammals. Just playing the Devil's disciple here.

It’s called the ‘Fluffy Kitten Index’ or ‘Panda Bear Index’.

The cuter and/or more appealing an animal is, the more upset people are when you’re mean to it.