BDS Statement on Stag Hunting

[Lancaster]

One might reasonably argue that disease status is important rather than something that ought to be ignored. Especially from a welfare perspective.

What you mean is that you don't agree with it. It is obviously justifiable. A state of exhaustion is not equivalent to cruelty. Nor is being hunted by dogs. The police use dogs after all. Are we to presume that is actually torture rather than a legitimate method of apprehending criminals?
Many endurance sports involve the participants being driven to extreme exhaustion. Is the London marathon or the Boat Race unjustifiable torture?

You're really pushing the bounds of reasonable debate here, are you deliberately trolling or just being obtuse?.

Hounds don't spend time identifying diseased beasts, they follow the scent regardless of age, sex or condition.

Pursuing an animal to exhaustion is cruelty in my book.

The Police analogy is crass, police dogs track and, if required, hold, they do not hunt the pursued to exhaustion, they do not take out the throat of a suspected perp and in most cases the suspected perp gives up when the dog takes hold, in many cases the threat of the dog is enough for them to give up.

Endurance sportsmen/women choose to push themselves to the limits, stags don't.

 

[Apthorpe]

Humans decide what level of exhaustion they subject themselves to, these deer can't. This may have been a legitimate means of getting food a long time ago, but now there are better methods and this activity is no longer jujustifiable.

This isn't an issue of how to get food. Veganism is the answer to that question, which makes any method of killing deer unjustifiable.

 

[Mungo]

A state of exhaustion is not equivalent to cruelty.

That entirely depends on how the exhaustion was induced.

Nor is being hunted by dogs. The police use dogs after all. Are we to presume that is actually torture rather than a legitimate method of apprehending criminals?

Being hunted by dogs when on the run is clearly extremely unpleasant for the fugitive. Arguably, that’s part of the point. It’s regarded as a necessary cruelty, justified by (1) the wider benefit of using the most efficient method for catching someone, and (2) the deterrent effect it may have precisely because it’s unpleasant.

Many endurance sports involve the participants being driven to extreme exhaustion. Is the London marathon or the Boat Race unjustifiable torture?

Absolutely to anyone forced to watch them…

 

[palmer_mike]

This isn't an issue of how to get food. Veganism is the answer to that question, which makes any method of killing deer unjustifiable.

I don’t really think that this statement holds together do you?

 

[Bowland blades]

Good.
No justification for chasing deer with dogs. No different to setting a lurcher at them

There is when done to bay, the deer was often spared . Then we have the use of dogs as tracking dogs when someone just messed up
I would seriously argue that like many nations do insist a capable dog should be available within a certain time frame after a stalker messes up

 

[Heym SR20]

That entirely depends on how the exhaustion was induced.


Being hunted by dogs when on the run is clearly extremely unpleasant for the fugitive. Arguably, that’s part of the point. It’s regarded as a necessary cruelty, justified by (1) the wider benefit of using the most efficient method for catching someone, and (2) the deterrent effect it may have precisely because it’s unpleasant.



Absolutely to anyone forced to watch them…

As regards endurance sports and being a former elite rower myself, you absolutely choose to put yourself in that position. You train your body and mind to do it and you taste the sweet success of victory and bitter taste of coming second.

As for hunting with hounds, trapping animals or for that matter catch and release of fish, my personal view is that if you are going to take the life of an animal, bird or fish you should do your utmost to achieve a quick clean kill, and then respect and make full use of the animal. Hunting and fishing should be on a sustainable basis and on the basis that removing an animal or fish in no ways harms the overall population, but in many ways improves the overall environment. The animal, bird or fish hasn’t consciously chosen to be the target, rather it has been outwitted by the hunter.

I understand that dogs are an essential part of hunting, indeed I use a dog to find and point game, and subsequently to find shot and wounded game.

I have been out hunting a couple of times. It is exhilarating riding a horse fast across the countryside, but I am uneasy with the ethics of it. I am also uneasy at farming phaesants and ducks and releasing them in large numbers on large commercial shoots. Fishing, I am uneasy with catch and release. My view is that if you are going to catch a fish then you should take it. If the fishery can only sustain a very limited number, then that is all that should be caught and taken. As for shoving the bycatch back over the side of a fishing boat - that is just plain wrong.

But I have no issue with hunting wild birds and taking a few for the pot. Indeed have just dined on a couple of mallard I shot at the weekend. And I enjoyed a good day in the countryside, took satisfaction in shooting a few ducks and a phaesant. I brought home two ducks, the rest went to other friends who were not so lucky. And those two pan fried duck were superb with roasted fennel and potatoes, and a redcurrent jelly and brandy reduction, redcurrents from our garden.

Deer, foxes, ducks, phaesants and other game animals and birds are sentient beings and can absolutely form relationships, feel pain etc.

But I have also spent time in the African bush with large predators. I have witnessed kills by lion and crocodiles - it is pretty terminal for the animal concerned, but I am always amazed at how the rest of the herd sort of look up, breath a sigh of relief and go back to everyday life. Wolves, hunting dogs, hyenas etc which run down their prey are part of nature’s rich tapestry. Our relationship with dogs probably evolved from ancient man forming some sort of relationship with wolves allowing early man to share in the kill. If I didn’t have a rifle, I would use a dog and a bow.

 

[LuckyEddie]

Hypothetical question.
If wolves were re-introduced and someone followed a pack, whilst it hunted, on horse back how would people feel about that?
Ignoring the safety aspects - would that sit well with people or not? Should people be allowed to do that?

Whether for or against, if people want an unbiased view on the issue, they should read Robin Page’s The Hunting Gene.
He wasn’t a hunter, shooter or fisherman so I think this does give him a bit of authority for a neutral view on the subject.

 

[Jon P]

It is well established that dogs can detect disease in humans which is undetectable to experienced medics by examination. It is unsound to presume that this skill does not extend to deer, merely because nobody has spent a tonne of money investigating it. If the BDS contests this, they really ought to commission the necessary body of research to settle the question.

Dogs do have a great ability to notice things we cannot, I live next door to a sheep farm, luckily I have permission to run my dogs and do what I want there. Not deer but my GWP will be running through the sheep and just stop and start pointing at one off them. I now know to take a photo of it, send it to farmer and he comes out and catches it with the quad bike as there is always something wrong with those ones. He was asking me how can I find them so quickly in the flock. I had to admit in the end it’s the dog not me.

 

[Hornet]

But the BDS is not a branch of hunting, however much we might wish they were. As per post #10 their remit is deer welfare and by inference humane management of such.

K

Correct, the BDS is not a branch of hunting, quick question, do you think the antis view them (the BDS) as a hunting (broad spectrum) sympathetic organisation, or merely a bunch of old gentlemen concerned merely with deer welfare?

 

[Tuck]

Despite your views on stag hunting. There are only 3 packs left in England. You take away hunting on Exmoor it will do far more harm than good for the red deer population , do you really think farmers or landowners will tolerate large herds without Hunting. The impact it would have on the country side economy would be massive. Seems to me the BDS is following on from the NT, more worried about offending supporters than what’s really good for the deer. All countryside sports need to stick together if Staghunting is gone, Gameshooting will be next on the agenda, then shooting of any form will come under scrutiny,

 

[Hornet]

Despite your views on stag hunting. There are only 3 packs left in England. You take away hunting on Exmoor it will do far more harm than good for the red deer population , do you really think farmers or landowners will tolerate large herds without Hunting. The impact it would have on the country side economy would be massive. Seems to me the BDS is following on from the NT, more worried about offending supporters than what’s really good for the deer. All countryside sports need to stick together if Staghunting is gone, Gameshooting will be next on the agenda, then shooting of any form will come under scrutiny,

Well said Sir, but trying to make some understand this, is like trying to medicate the dead

 

[308tikka]

It does seem that, here in the 21st century, the BDS does make some valid points......

https://bds.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/BDS-Position-Paper-Hunting-deer-with-hounds.pdf

Spot on.

 

[finnbear270]

Should we advocate cruelty in defence of shooting?

 

[nun_hunter]

Despite your views on stag hunting. There are only 3 packs left in England. You take away hunting on Exmoor it will do far more harm than good for the red deer population , do you really think farmers or landowners will tolerate large herds without Hunting. The impact it would have on the country side economy would be massive. Seems to me the BDS is following on from the NT, more worried about offending supporters than what’s really good for the deer. All countryside sports need to stick together if Staghunting is gone, Gameshooting will be next on the agenda, then shooting of any form will come under scrutiny,

Genuine question but why do the farmers benefit from stag hunting? Are they paid a rent or fee to let the hounds run their land and are they compensated for any damage etc?

If it's deer numbers then surely a regular cull with rifles would be more effective? If you want a good number of stags to hunt then you need an artificiality high population to support an increase in big stags to chase?

 

[timbrayford]

A week last Saturday I pulled into a farmyard alongside a conifer block. Stepped out of the car and could immeadiately hear dogs barking in the private woodland quite close by. Immeadiate thoughts were that some walker's dogs from the hillside footpath had been left to run free and had started to chase deer. So I quickly jumped on the quad and headed to the top of the hill to look for the owners. With no one in sight when I got there, I headed back down and through a woodland block to access the other side of the farm quickly. After stopping and picking up the sound of dogs, I headed in their direction and stopped on the woodland edge where the barking was at it's noisiest. Anyway, a couple of roe left the woodland right in front of me followed a minute later by a dozen or so beagles, trailing the exact line the roe had just taken.

Knowing that no hunt had permission to be there, I could hear a horn in the distance so headed off again to catch up with the trespassing hunt. I eventually found "the hunt", away on another farm that I could not get too from where I was. "The hunt" were some 3/4 mile distance from their pack of maybe 20 beagles, that were running about over 4 different landowners land, none of which they had permission. I could see they were happy to trail deer, probably anything that moved, and if I could have approched from where I was I would have done. The beagles were being "controlled" by 2 adults and 5 children and as far as I am concerned, who were just rural vandals with no care of landowners or the animals that roam there. Some of my family are hunting people (fox), and we all know that they stick to the law (Haa), and again, one of the landowners banned one if this lot from the land after hounds were causing mayhem with both livestock and deer. The hunt master was obnoctious to the owners and felt they had the right to enter and break the law.

I have called the farmer who's land the beagles were supposed to be but as yet, no answer. Maybe I shouldn't have sent a text in advance asking for details of the beagles owners

Some may be better controlled by others but most of them do not deserve to be allowed to run amock in the countryside (stag, fox or anything else hounds) under the pretence they do a necesary job.

It was interesting to see roe run from one part of the woodland to another whilst sika headed to the middle of fields, group up, work out where the houds were and where they were moving too, and then head back to the quieter areas. It did seem as though a week later, the sika were a lot more skittish and sharper, especially the larger groups.

The Achilles heel of hunting with hounds, trespassing where they are unwelcome and pursuing and killing creatures when they have no business to do so. And dare I say it, some arrogant boarding school type bellowing out orders to all and sundry too!

 

[timbrayford]

This isn't an issue of how to get food. Veganism is the answer to that question, which makes any method of killing deer unjustifiable.

Apart from keeping deer in balance with their environment, not too many, not too few, and certainly not Oostvaardersplassen!

 

[Heym SR20]

In Africa there is a simple saying as regards wildlife - if it pays it stays.

If wildlife has a value it is protected and cherished. But man is inherently greedy and if it is not of value to one man, it is of value to another.

We have seen this all over the world - wildlife gets in the way of man’s progress and it’s killed, eaten and gone forever.

Most of the world’s wild lands owe their continued existence thanks to value of hunting.

The challenge that hunting and shooting has in the UK is that there is no direct link between the “hunting” and “government”.

Imagine how the status quo if the likes of SNH, Natural England were funded directly by a tax stamp like wildlife agencies are rest of world over. It could be on a per head of game, or a seasonal licence etc.

If SNH’s income was directly in proportion to quality of game shooting then I think we would get a very different view.

 

[salukiwhippet]

Wonder how stressful herds of fallow find it when they're constantly under stalking pressure and see their mates getting walloped week in week out?

 

[finnbear270]

Wonder how stressful herds of fallow find it when they're constantly under stalking pressure and see their mates getting walloped week in week out?

Pends on how fast the stalkers can run?

 

[Apthorpe]

You're really pushing the bounds of reasonable debate here, are you deliberately trolling or just being obtuse?

Et tu?

Hounds don't spend time identifying diseased beasts, they follow the scent regardless of age, sex or condition.

They don't need to "spend time" to do that.

Pursuing an animal to exhaustion is cruelty in my book.

So long as the animal isn't human. I note this is "in your book", rather than on any objective basis.

The Police analogy is crass, police dogs track and, if required, hold, they do not hunt the pursued to exhaustion, they do not take out the throat of a suspected perp and in most cases the suspected perp gives up when the dog takes hold, in many cases the threat of the dog is enough for them to give up.

"Hold" how? With a fluffy cuddle or by sinking their teeth in? What is the "threat" if not deliberately inducing fear?

Endurance sportsmen/women choose to push themselves to the limits, stags don't.

Choice isn't relevant, the issue is whether it is a degree of suffering and trauma that amounts to cruelty. Obviously, given the acceptability of such conditions for humans, it doesn't. Animal rights nonsense goes too far. Humans are driven to suicide by agents of the government in various forms and nobody is criminally responsible, yet chase an animal and that's unacceptable? Bull5h1t.