Bedfordshire Police have now suspended all grants indefinitely due to Plymouth.

The Eastern Region triumvirate stance is probably a reaction to the fact that the HO are preparing a response to the Plymouth Coroner's Prevention of Future Deaths report. The Coroner has the ability to issue such reports. They aren’t binding as the post above suggests - but they carry weight. Optics of not doing anything will be the driver here. Plus there is the Scottish Administration review of licensing underway, which again isn’t binding - as it’s not a devolved matter - but again will carry weight with the HO.

So, why continue on one path when you may need to switch it pretty quickly in a few weeks? The HO response is due in May.

This is standard HO practice following such events - they are possibly getting ready for immediate change to HO guidance; and legally, the police organisations probably can get away with it, as it is unlike Co-vid when they suspended new grants, which was basically, open ended.

A copy of the Coroner’s report can be viewed here:

https://tgchambers.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/KEYHAM-INQUESTS-Combined-PFD-reports-1.pdf

The main findings are summarised as:

1) That there should be “root and branch reform” of firearms legislation. The Coroner expressed the view that the Firearms Act 1968 is out of date and not fit for purpose, and contributes to a situation which endangers public safety.

2) That the Home Office’s statutory guidance on firearms licensing, as currently framed, is “at best confusing and at worst misleading”. Its suggestion that licensing staff should not take into account allegations which have not been proved on the balance of probabilities, when deciding whether an applicant is suitable to hold a firearm, is “premised on a misunderstanding of the underlying legal position”.

3) That there is an urgent need to develop and maintain a national accredited training regime for licensing staff. The Coroner noted that this recommendation has been made on numerous occasions since the Dunblane massacre, but that “over the past 27 years, there has been an abject failure” by successive governments to implement it.

4) That the Lord Chief Justice should ensure that adequate training on firearms licensing is made available to Crown Court judges as a matter of urgency, and that only judges who have undergone this training should be authorised to hear appeals against licensing decisions under s.44 of the 1968 Act.

5) That all 43 Chief Constables in England & Wales should carry out an urgent review of cases where a person currently holds a gun which has been returned to them after an earlier refusal or seizure by the police. There is a concern that in many cases, individuals who pose a danger to the public may be in possession of firearms which have been returned to them following an inadequate risk assessment.

6) That there should be a mandatory requirement to place a warning marker on all medical records, not just GP records, so that health professionals can contact the police whenever a certificate holder reports symptoms (particularly mental health symptoms) that might affect their suitability to possess a gun.

7) That application fees should be set at a level which adequately funds the whole of the firearms licensing system. The inquest heard evidence that at present, the taxpayer subsidises most of the cost of firearms licensing, with the resulting risk that licensing departments are routinely underfunded.

So, there is nothing massively new here - rather a need for the whole licensing system to be brought into the 21st Century. I personally have absolutely no issue with that.

Systemic failure in licensing process has seemingly been at the root of all tragedies since Hungerford. I agree it’s lack of leadership and direction from all key decision makers. Central Government down. This includes police organisations - and yes I am ex-job. I really hope this will bring about major change.

Nothing in the recommendations actually worries me or makes me think that my good reason for the possession and use of licensed firearms will be altered to any significant degree that would preclude me using them. More hoops, probably; more cost, inevitably: but that’s the price of a modernised licensing system, instead of one that’s grown piecemeal over 50 odd years, and is not fit for purpose in how it is delivered.
 
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Sounds like your on the job or ex . Frankly speaking now, there is only the excise of poor management of the task at hand when other forces like mine in Lancashire are doing just fine .
Senior management should answer for failings and learn from other forces , that is after all just what industry would require . Drop seriously behind and those in charge would be warned , instructed and then if no improvement career limiting or ending moves would be made.
Again, I don't disagree with the premise but what does 'doing just fine' look like? As far as I know there is no performance criteria for firearms licensing. Perhaps that would be a good idea and then there is an objective measure of when forces are not performing well.

Policing isn't an industry. I can think of very few in which future human behaviour of people who are not employees would be critical to the business. Turnaround of certificates would not be the only performance metric. Absence of firearms related injuries and deaths would presumably feature. Hence the balance I mentioned in my previous post.
 
That's interesting that the police can't go to court to challenge it, boot is on the other foot now 🤣.
Can't really believe that the Coroner has the power to stop grants of FACs, only a revocation of the law can do that.
no but he can state that certain checks should be done again or recheck/review events that have happened over a period of time... all of which take up time and staffing... and he can give a very strict time limit on it.... cannot recall as too long since i retired if it is 28 or 56 days to comply or the Chief Constable can be called to attend the court and explain why they have failed to comply.
 
Again, I don't disagree with the premise but what does 'doing just fine' look like? As far as I know there is no performance criteria for firearms licensing. Perhaps that would be a good idea and then there is an objective measure of when forces are not performing well.
It always used to be that grants and renewals were definitely dealt with well inside 8 weeks. There seems very little excuse for a variation taking any longer than a week.
Policing isn't an industry.
Indeed not. I understand it is colloquially referred to as a "game" by employees, which may explain something.
I can think of very few in which future human behaviour of people who are not employees would be critical to the business.
Airlines. Cars. Construction. All leap to mind without much thought.
Turnaround of certificates would not be the only performance metric. Absence of firearms related injuries and deaths would presumably feature. Hence the balance I mentioned in my previous post.
Are you confident the police would support the principle of them being accountable for the crimes they fail to prevent or solve?
 
It always used to be that grants and renewals were definitely dealt with well inside 8 weeks. There seems very little excuse for a variation taking any longer than a week.

Indeed not. I understand it is colloquially referred to as a "game" by employees, which may explain something.

Airlines. Cars. Construction. All leap to mind without much thought.
In fact every single industry.
Are you confident the police would support the principle of them being accountable for the crimes they fail to prevent or solve?
 
Sadly no process for licensing firearms or monitoring of firearms owners will ever be perfect, such that it can guarantee 100% to stop the potential of another plymouth. The weak link in it all is humans.
 
When you read the Coroners report the major single thing that jumps out at me is his statement that the law should be changed. Currently you will be issued a licence UNLESS there is evidence that is it unsafe to do so. He states that it should be a privilege rather than a right to hold a firearm and that it SHOULD NOT be authorised unless the Chief Constable is satisfied there is no risk.....

this is a MASSIVE shift in law, if this were to come in.
 
Amazing really that the countries police forces can't get their own act in order and are employing large numbers of staff that they openly admit are not suitable for the job and they want to spend more time and resources messing with firearms licensing. Perhaps they should get their priorities right and concentrate on their own failings first.
 
Again, I don't disagree with the premise but what does 'doing just fine' look like? As far as I know there is no performance criteria for firearms licensing. Perhaps that would be a good idea and then there is an objective measure of when forces are not performing well.

Policing isn't an industry. I can think of very few in which future human behaviour of people who are not employees would be critical to the business. Turnaround of certificates would not be the only performance metric. Absence of firearms related injuries and deaths would presumably feature. Hence the balance I mentioned in my previous post.
What does it look like here in Lancs? Variation for me about three weeks say ! Plus sorted my daughter as there is a new guidance out that effects her within that time scale
 
It always used to be that grants and renewals were definitely dealt with well inside 8 weeks. There seems very little excuse for a variation taking any longer than a week.

Indeed not. I understand it is colloquially referred to as a "game" by employees, which may explain something.

Airlines. Cars. Construction. All leap to mind without much thought.

Are you confident the police would support the principle of them being accountable for the crimes they fail to prevent or solve?
Perhaps read what I actually wrote.

8 weeks may well be a good measure but it isn't set out anywhere. What good performance looks like is subjective. It would probably be useful to have an expectation of timescales by which forces could be measured.

You understand incorrectly about policing colloquiallism.

It's pretty settled law that car manufacturers and construction do not take liabiity for future human behaviour in relation to their products. Not so for firearms licensing.

Not sure what relevance is of the principle that you have simply imagined to exist. It's a complete non sequitur from the position of licensing.
 
What does it look like here in Lancs? Variation for me about three weeks say ! Plus sorted my daughter as there is a new guidance out that effects her within that time scale
Sure. I think thats a reasonable performance. I was making the point that at the moment how forces perform is not set against any kind of standard AFAIK.
 
Perhaps read what I actually wrote.

8 weeks may well be a good measure but it isn't set out anywhere.
It was certainly previously set out in writing by the force I’ve had certificates with for 25yrs or so, and I think also referred to by BASC in their monitoring of performance.
What good performance looks like is subjective. It would probably be useful to have an expectation of timescales by which forces could be measured.
I agree. I have no problems with the timescales which were in common use prior to their apparent abandonment.
You understand incorrectly about policing colloquiallism.
I am very relieved to hear it.
It's pretty settled law that car manufacturers and construction do not take liabiity for future human behaviour in relation to their products. Not so for firearms licensing.
What shooting event has a police force ever taken liability for? It is my understanding the the police are explicitly legally excluded from liability arising from their failure to prevent a crime.
Not sure what relevance is of the principle that you have simply imagined to exist. It's a complete non sequitur from the position of licensing.
I agree, however it was a direct sequitur from your prior comment. You seem to think the police already have such liability, I didn’t and I presumed they would not welcome it.
 
What shooting event has a police force ever taken liability for? It is my understanding the the police are explicitly legally excluded from liability arising from their failure to prevent a crime.

I agree, however it was a direct sequitur from your prior comment. You seem to think the police already have such liability, I didn’t and I presumed they would not welcome it.

I don't think police have legal liability. That is a concept that you imported into this discussion by virtue of failing to carefully read what I originally wrote. I pointed out that your examples weren't correct when assessed against what I had written. Liability is the only way to do that for a company.
 
Fyi, for anyone who may be interested,
Herts beds and cambs have now opened up the grant process again.
Seems that they’re somewhat more efficient, although I’m still waiting for my FAC interview after applying in early April
 
Fyi, for anyone who may be interested,
Herts beds and cambs have now opened up the grant process again.
Seems that they’re somewhat more efficient, although I’m still waiting for my FAC interview after applying in early April
If its a new grant it will be after all the renewals that will be backed-up . Obvious but not in the favour of anyone with a first application .
 
Just remember not to dye your hair if you have to submit a hair strand test for alcohol or drugs - it really messes up the test and shows as negative in all cases.
Just like if you cut your fingernails really short!
Wouldn’t want anyone to cause an issue with the testing procedure!!
 
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