Big game hunting - marmite

[wildfowler.250]

Having a look at the progress of the petition for the British shooting show to allow hunting agents to show at the event,(I signed several days ago). Pretty disappointing to see less than 4000 signatures. By contrast we managed to get 142,000 signatures,(and still increasing) to try and convince the BBC to sack Chris Packham after his attack on the general licence.

Disheartening to see the lack of unity amongst shooting groups. Really we should all be sticking together no matter what the interest but it looks like everyone just looks after their own.

(*from someone who’s yet to hunt in Africa)

Thoughts?

 

[Woodsmoke]

Nothing changes, does it? We're all so quick to bitch and whine and p iss and moan about what we see as unfair prejudice, but when it comes to actually doing anything proactive to help ourselves . . . ? Cue tumbleweed . . . .

 

[levigsp]

So this show one thing clearly, the vast majority of uk field sports enthusiasts, are self centred, jealous people. if they are not going big game hunting then why should anyone else and why should they support those that do. when they ban trophy's from deer, etc then every stalker will moan, but they will deserve what's coming.

 

[wildfowler.250]

I thought the farming community,(who were rightly annoyed with Packham) would have helped the other vote but we should really be able to muster more than 4000 votes on a poll. How many members are there between BASC, SACS and NGO ect..?

 

[The Bear]

It would seem that like everything on social media, the issue gets diluted with no clear focus and reports of multiple petitions, some of which are allegedly asking for money. Is it really any surprise the numbers signing are low. I have received no communication from BASC Regarding this matter or any kind of direction from them towards the official petition as I seem remember they at least completed with the general license fiasco.

 

[wildfowler.250]

Interesting take on it. Certainly most of these petitions ask for sponsorship but you can sign them free of charge.

Generally by the time basc mention it, it’s a week after it’s already surfaced on Facebook,(I am a member, they’re just more reactive than proactive).

 

[starr shot]

Can’t find where you sign anyone know where it is

 

[bogtrotter]

Never hunted in Africa and almost certainly never will but I did sign this when it first appeared.

 

[Tony Morgan]

Many, including deer-stalkers, will find trophy-hunting distasteful. Many African species hunted can't claim the added justification that they provide food. Can't agree that we must all stick together no matter what; we can and should apply discrimination and discretion. I don't think we're still defending badger-baiting or cock-fighting are we?

 

[Orion]

I don't think we're still defending badger-baiting or cock-fighting are we?

I wasn’t aware they were legal activities? Whereas the subject of the ban is.

 

[Duncs]

Would sign.....but hadn't heard/seen it! Sadly people that work, live and breath the outdoors are doing just that, and not sitting in front of social media all day. Pop a link up, and see if it can be made to stay in a place where it can been seen/copied for quick access, by busy people.

 

[75]

So this show one thing clearly, the vast majority of uk field sports enthusiasts, are self centred, jealous people.

I haven't signed up. Maybe I should and I'm just being lazy but I suspect I'm like lots of folk and have no real interest in a) the British Shooting Show or b) "trophy hunting" / big game hunting. In the same way that if the time comes, I wouldn't expect pigeon shooters of the world to fall over themselves to defend deer stalking (as an example), I'm not sure why I'm being expected to defend something I've got no interest in or will never participate in.

I could only vaguely tell you what the issue is about (banning any African game companies from attending British Shooting Show, regardless of whether it's for conservation, trophies or otherwise I think), but I couldn't go into any real detail. I hear all this talk about it being "the thin end of the wedge" and it'll ultimately lead to a ban on shooting in the UK, but quite honestly I don't believe it. The link is tenuous at best and I think the problem of Big Game Hunting is one of image and perception. I find some of the image of Big Game Hunting to be distasteful and smacks of the excesses of the victorians and the raj etc. I suspect the reality is far removed from my image of overweight aristocrats in pith helmets, but if that's the image held by someone with a reasonable education and who shoots and has grown up around fieldsports, then what sort of image do the general public have of big game hunting? It's all be about shooting the last tiger in existence whilst sat astride an elephant in their eyes. The costs are certainly eye watering for some species and out of reach of most, so that only reinforces the view that it's elitist.

 

[bowji john]

It is a difficult topic and I can understand why it doesn't appeal to many

This is how I see it .....

There are certain realities that affect African wildlife - perhaps other areas too

The main threats to wildlife are:

Climate change - some of it cyclic, some of it man made

Habitat loss - some of it due to climate change, most due to population growth and lifestyle change

Natural predation

Human predation - some of it due to food production, some of it due to hunting (most of the hunting damage is as a consequence of local communities that hunt for bush meat and drive out predators so they can graze their cattle). A huge impact is also due to poaching. Trophy hunting is of minimal impact.

Unfortunately through out Southern Africa wild life is largely restricted to managed (fenced or otherwise) areas

Managed land requires income - some comes from tourism, some from donations and charities, some from Gov grants and a huge amount comes from the trophy hunter

A well managed reserve will result in an occasional imbalance of grazers and predators - that must be managed

Top predators like big cats die a hard death when they are kicked out of the pride - old males struggle to hunt and will 'fall off the bus' pretty quickly

Some will turn to easy pickings like villagers and their cattle

You cannot run a successful reserve without the support of local villagers

These are some of the reasons why culling is periodically required

You can either pay someone to cull or you can get a trophy hunter to pay for the privileged, that money going back into repairing water holes, water pumping stations, fences and anti poaching patrols, clinics and schools for locals

Without managed reserves and the revenue to support them, wild life would be wiped out in Southern Africa in short order

Life is a little different from that perceived by the metrosexual city dwelling yuppies that pontificate about the immorality of game management

 

[Basil H]

75, your post illustrates the problem - perception. You give a chap a few quid and take to the woods in the Home Counties with him. You shoot a deer - you have been big game hunting. You bring home the antlers (if any) to hang on the wall - you are a trophy hunter.
They will be along for you when they have finished with the other fellow - the one with the springbok horns on his wall.

 

[TH4]

Many, including deer-stalkers, will find trophy-hunting distasteful. Many African species hunted can't claim the added justification that they provide food. Can't agree that we must all stick together no matter what; we can and should apply discrimination and discretion. I don't think we're still defending badger-baiting or cock-fighting are we?

If you have ever kept the head of anything you have shot then you are a trophy hunter. Does not matter that it is a poor head or a gold medal it is still a trophy. African trophy hunting provides jobs money and stability to many locals and supports the conservation of many species that would otherwise be decimated by the locals. We will never survive as shooters if we have so many enemies within our own ranks.

 

[jer]

I haven't signed up. Maybe I should and I'm just being lazy but I suspect I'm like lots of folk and have no real interest in a) the British Shooting Show or b) "trophy hunting" / big game hunting. In the same way that if the time comes, I wouldn't expect pigeon shooters of the world to fall over themselves to defend deer stalking (as an example), I'm not sure why I'm being expected to defend something I've got no interest in or will never participate in.

I could only vaguely tell you what the issue is about (banning any African game companies from attending British Shooting Show, regardless of whether it's for conservation, trophies or otherwise I think), but I couldn't go into any real detail. I hear all this talk about it being "the thin end of the wedge" and it'll ultimately lead to a ban on shooting in the UK, but quite honestly I don't believe it. The link is tenuous at best and I think the problem of Big Game Hunting is one of image and perception. I find some of the image of Big Game Hunting to be distasteful and smacks of the excesses of the victorians and the raj etc. I suspect the reality is far removed from my image of overweight aristocrats in pith helmets, but if that's the image held by someone with a reasonable education and who shoots and has grown up around fieldsports, then what sort of image do the general public have of big game hunting? It's all be about shooting the last tiger in existence whilst sat astride an elephant in their eyes. The costs are certainly eye watering for some species and out of reach of most, so that only reinforces the view that it's elitist.

Obviously you have a very narrow interest with your stalking and care very little about others who engage in fieldsports. Quite a sad attitude TBH and if you cannot see the direct and very real link between ALL shooting disciplines in the eyes of the antis you must be walking around with your eyes closed. You have never experienced or have any knowledge of Big Game Hunting yet you choose to believe the image and find that belief distasteful. Have you not read some of the posts on this forum by people who have the experience explaining the reality or maybe you prefer to ignore those posts. I would suggest your "reasonable education" and "growing up around fieldsports" has been quite limited if your perception is that Big Game Hunting is carried out by overweight aristocrats in pith helmets. Think on this, there are plenty of antis out there who have the perception that deer stalking is carried out by overweight landed gentry who are only interested in taking the "Monarch of the Glen" to hang his head on a wall back in the stately home.

 

[finnbear270]

Obviously you have a very narrow interest with your stalking and care very little about others who engage in fieldsports. Quite a sad attitude TBH and if you cannot see the direct and very real link between ALL shooting disciplines in the eyes of the antis you must be walking around with your eyes closed. You have never experienced or have any knowledge of Big Game Hunting yet you choose to believe the image and find that belief distasteful. Have you not read some of the posts on this forum by people who have the experience explaining the reality or maybe you prefer to ignore those posts. I would suggest your "reasonable education" and "growing up around fieldsports" has been quite limited if your perception is that Big Game Hunting is carried out by overweight aristocrats in pith helmets. Think on this, there are plenty of antis out there who have the perception that deer stalking is carried out by overweight landed gentry who are only interested in taking the "Monarch of the Glen" to hang his head on a wall back in the stately home.

I feel a "Hear Hear " coming on.

 

[Cumbrian 1]

Many, including deer-stalkers, will find trophy-hunting distasteful. Many African species hunted can't claim the added justification that they provide food. Can't agree that we must all stick together no matter what; we can and should apply discrimination and discretion. I don't think we're still defending badger-baiting or cock-fighting are we?

big game hunting is far more ethical than deer stalking in the UK.

1 It is far more selective as the oldest trophies normally past their breeding age are the most highly sought

2 In many countries Elephants, lions, buffalos etc only thrive in the hunting reserves as these areas provide an income for the country as a whole, it provides an alternative income from clearing the bush for farming, it creates employment for the locals who come to value the game animals as a resource, these reserves employ a huge anti poaching team and much of the money from the legitimate hunting is siphoned off to help pay for the upkeep of the national parks

3 Many of the reserves are in areas where no eco tourist will ever go people often quote Kruger and Etosha but these are two tiny pockets of Africa and the carbon footprint and footfall per dollar generated is huge compared to hunting where a handful of hunters produce the same if not greater income.

4 Deerstalking is a walk in the park compared to trying to select an old bull elephant and following it day after day in order to get a shot.

5 Is a buffalo's life worth any more/less than a roe deer's life?

6 All of the animal is utilised


Yes there are bad practices often in SA but most SA operators on the whole offer fair chase ethical hunting and there are many areas in SA that are unfenced (I have no issues with fenced reserves providing they are big enough) but on the whole big game hunting is ethical and sustainable

 

[sikamalc]

Many, including deer-stalkers, will find trophy-hunting distasteful. Many African species hunted can't claim the added justification that they provide food. Can't agree that we must all stick together no matter what; we can and should apply discrimination and discretion. I don't think we're still defending badger-baiting or cock-fighting are we?

I am afraid Tony this is where you are very much mistaken, please let me explain.

In many African countries the campfire scheme was implemented. This was especially designed if I am jot mistaken for large areas still under the control of local ethnic people. The scheme works in that a cenus is done by the game dept, the government organises the auction to a safari company, along with the local heads people. The area is managed sympathetically and the locals get employment in the camps. They also get a good share of the over all profits, which then is used to build wells and schools for the local community. They also get a larger share of the meat from all animals taken. Nothing goes to waste. At the end of the season the camps are closed down and some are removed.
This has been rolled out across many African countries, although I grant you some corruption has crept in. I see little difference in your going out and taking a deer off your ground or anyone else's which you take home to eat, or indeed sell it onto a game dealer.

Now I know you are going to say ahh well you cant say the same about shooting a Leopard or a Lion or Giraffe or an Elephant. Elephant are a subject matter on their own to a certain extent. In some parts Elephants are thriving, in others not so well. Usually due to human population growth, such as Kenya. On the other hand places such as Botswana have a thriving population. However where ever you are in Africa, poaching is one of the biggest issues when it comes to Elephants and Rhino.

Any Leopard or Lion taken in Africa comes under Cities 1 and is carefully controlled. Leopard in particular are very successful cats and will live in close proximity to humans. Only a limited amount are culled each year. As for Lion, its true that the areas they once frequented are getting smaller. But again in many instances this is due to human pressure. Poisoning big cats, hyaenas and vultures is still common place across Africa by the locals to protect their livestock. Hunting does prevent a lot of this occurring due to payments for loss of stock being made and education.

I am NOT in favour of breeding Lions for the specific purpose of hunting them. I think you will find that many real hunters are against any of this type of thing going on.

Issues across Africa with wildlife conservation and hunting are complex at times, but I can tell you one thing, if they stop legitimate, ethical hunting of the game it will not last long. That I will guarantee, maybe not in my lifetime, but it will be the death nail for most if not all of it.

 

[CarlW]

Many, including deer-stalkers, will find trophy-hunting distasteful. Many African species hunted can't claim the added justification that they provide food. Can't agree that we must all stick together no matter what; we can and should apply discrimination and discretion. I don't think we're still defending badger-baiting or cock-fighting are we?

What a thoroughly ignorant post.