BMH and Hanoverian
- Thread starter James0586
- Start date
mereside
Well-Known Member
Hi James I think we have spoken via email, working style is really the same thing just maybe more in the training side of the HS than the BGS as the working tests are different and the HS gives more on indication side of the tracking but they are similar. temperament is very different the HS is very laid back in mannerisms the bgs is more highly strung when not tracking if you are talking uk bred dogs then there are many things to worry about, agression and game sharpness are not the same thing and aggression in uk bgs is widespread. as is health issues. pros and cons are really what you want out of each breed, both have huge drive for work and both are great for around the house and family if the working balance is met, there is a huge difference from uk bred hounds to the performance bred dogs but just buying a European dog doesn't mean you get a better dog as the fci is heavily into show lines, you are welcome to see all our working dogs and what drive they have and also what they do and the differences, many regards wayne, ps the handler needs training to get the best from these dogs and you here all the time how difficult they are but this is not the case they have a way to get the best from them.
cookingfat
Well-Known Member
Hi James,
give me a ring and I will talk you through some of the differences between the two breeds and the pros and cons of dogs bred here and in Europe,
my number is on the website
Tony
give me a ring and I will talk you through some of the differences between the two breeds and the pros and cons of dogs bred here and in Europe,
my number is on the website
Tony
James0586
Well-Known Member
Wayne, I believe we have spoken over email. thanks for the reply. Like I said I’m keen to learn as much as possible about the dogs and their styles etc.
James0586
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply
James0586
Well-Known Member
Cheers Wayne much appreciated.... When you get the seminar dates can you let me know please so I can come along.
Cheers
James
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
James0586,there is also a correct way and a way that some want to be seen to know what they are talking about but have proven nothing whatsoever.
The main difference being there are those that do and those that talk and have proven nothing with their own dogs.
Correct way is the ISHV route,which in turn is only available one way in the UK or in fact in Europe with these dogs,through UKSHA.
The other routes with these dogs only leads you into grief and with dogs with no recognised papers or tests from people who are not qualified to judge but wish to be seen to know everything by having done nothing.
That’s the long and short of it.
The ISHV gives the performance breeding for working performance,health and conformation to breed standards.
No other route helps either breed.
Talk to Wayne and he will keep you correct.
He has proven the knowledge he has gained, as all within UKSHA have with tests and work gained by those with real experience and knowledge of the breeds.
The ISHV gives assurances no others can.
The Vignette on the papers tells all.That Vignette is not given to dogs pedigrees without having been already fully tested and acknowledged to be working at a high level,healthy and conforming to breed standard.
FCI only dogs or U.K. bred dogs can not give these assurances.
They will look like they should as Wayne says,FCI are only concerned with show standards.
Looks can be deceiving.
All the best
George
The main difference being there are those that do and those that talk and have proven nothing with their own dogs.
Correct way is the ISHV route,which in turn is only available one way in the UK or in fact in Europe with these dogs,through UKSHA.
The other routes with these dogs only leads you into grief and with dogs with no recognised papers or tests from people who are not qualified to judge but wish to be seen to know everything by having done nothing.
That’s the long and short of it.
The ISHV gives the performance breeding for working performance,health and conformation to breed standards.
No other route helps either breed.
Talk to Wayne and he will keep you correct.
He has proven the knowledge he has gained, as all within UKSHA have with tests and work gained by those with real experience and knowledge of the breeds.
The ISHV gives assurances no others can.
The Vignette on the papers tells all.That Vignette is not given to dogs pedigrees without having been already fully tested and acknowledged to be working at a high level,healthy and conforming to breed standard.
FCI only dogs or U.K. bred dogs can not give these assurances.
They will look like they should as Wayne says,FCI are only concerned with show standards.
Looks can be deceiving.
All the best
George
Last edited:
James0586
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the insight.
(No disrespect but I’m not concerned on the politics side of this and the ISHV and FCI side of things mean nowt to me I’m afraid if you could explain what these are it would be helpful to me)
I’m interested in the differences of both breeds. What makes them tick and what different characteristics they have styles of tracking/training etc.
I have trained both malinois and German shepherds for protection work and cockers and springers for detection work both do the same job however they do it very differently and are trained slightly different to get the best results.
I’m genuinely interested in the dogs.
Cheers James.
(No disrespect but I’m not concerned on the politics side of this and the ISHV and FCI side of things mean nowt to me I’m afraid if you could explain what these are it would be helpful to me)
I’m interested in the differences of both breeds. What makes them tick and what different characteristics they have styles of tracking/training etc.
I have trained both malinois and German shepherds for protection work and cockers and springers for detection work both do the same job however they do it very differently and are trained slightly different to get the best results.
I’m genuinely interested in the dogs.
Cheers James.
mereside
Well-Known Member
James the training is slightly different in terms of how trails are laid, for the BGS you use blood for woundbeds and small mount on the track, the HS we use no blood, everything is in a track for the BGS along a trail with the HS everything is broken down from finding a track that is blind, finding a direction of a track and also finding sign on a an unknown track. we also would work a real wild boar in a small group and then chase to hold or bay. then we would work a track with a boar in cover for the reaction side of things. so the training for the HS is quite a bit more in depth, what george is talking about and even if you are not interested in the politics of things there is a real issue with the breeds here in the uk and even further afield regarding health and breeding and even if you get lucky and get a real worker. you take the chance here , just have a read on the health issues that there are in this small gene pool which the BMHS society pretty much destroyed them in the beginning and now try to rectify what went wrong. for the same price you can get a dog from the original breed society's that have been performance bred by proving the health and working ability, here it is a lottery, or take a chance and bring one in from Europe again with fci papers that are from show lines, if you went through each society they ask you to do a course on handler training to get the best from the puppy and also a full training regime broken down so you have the best dog you can have each step of the way they help you and the dog, you never get anything here in this regard and many who are breeding don't start the pups early enough before you get them, the first 16 weeks is critical in getting more from the pups, I can go into further detail if you require,regards wayne
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
Absolutely no disrespect taken at all.
It’s not politics at all James.
The ISHV is an International club which oversees the performance breeding of both BGS and HS.
The ISHV consists of 15 European countries and clubs-1 from each country apart from Germany where they have 1 club for BGS and one for HS.
The clubs in Germany are the original breed societies.
Established in 1894 for HS.
Established in 1912 for BGS.
The ISHV was established in 1930.
To allow common goals and aims for the performance breeding of both BGS and HS.
Performance breeding means the dogs are tested on working abilities,not just a tracking test with scent shoes but they are also tested and judged on wounded animals,it’s the real thing that matters.
Only healthy dogs are bred.
All dogs also conform to breed standard.
These are all compulsory before being bred within the ISHV.
It is all controlled breeding to improve the dogs and their work,health and conformation to breed standards.
The FCI on the other hand is a registry,very similar to the UK Kennel Club.
The FCI also have the breed standards for all breeds........however for both BGS and HS the original breed societies in Germany wrote the breed standards for the FCI.
The FCI are not interested in working ability,health or even conformation to breed standards before breeding.
In short,the FCI are much more concerned with shows and show dogs.
There is no guarantee at all of a working dog from the FCI.
The tracking and training of both breeds are both very similar.
We have both breeds in Police forces doing man tracking and drug work as well.
However they excel at their original job,tracking wounded animals after others have failed and chasing wounded animals when other breeds give up.
Give Wayne a shout for more info,he’s our secretary and will give out the exact same advice as myself.
All the best
George
James0586
Well-Known Member
Cheers Wayne, with regards to the politics I meant no disrespect from it. I understand that there are issues with breeding etc.
I am more into the dogs and how they work. The explanation of starteing each dog is very helpful and an insight into each is great.
Regards James
mereside
Well-Known Member
So are we James, All I can say is go see Tony and how they work there dogs and come talk to the guys within UKSHA who have taken dogs from each society you can see any differences yourself, we also have guys who took british dogs including me as my first working hound and you will also see a huge difference even with the amount of training, to my mind there is real help from within the original breed society's as they only want the best out of the breed and it isn't to make money its for the benefit of the breed regards wayne, if you really into the dogs and getting the best from them I can arrange a trip over to see our dogs working and what it is all about
Good thread. Out of interest, what is the average price for a pup bred along the ISHV lines?
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