Brass shotgun cases and fibre wad with steel shot

New Avon Arms
kimh

kimh

Well-Known Member
why not, stop messing with plastic cups and use wad to push the steel
I say brass cases so there is a small step for the steel, no bounce?
you could even seal the end (crimp that is) with a low temperate wax that may even offer a bit of barrel lubrication assistance
just a thought
So off you go, guys, I've put light the touchpaper...

Nick Horton test
 
Have you thought about the weight and cost aspects? Just because its possible may not mean its practical. Just my thought.
 
Oh! No! But I may be wrong.

At one time brass cases were for guns built on the "Heath" principle. The so called "chamberless" 12 bore.

That is you can get near 10 bore performance out of a gun of regular 12 bore external dimensions and 12 bore weight as, as others rightly say, the internal diameter of a brass case compared with then then usual paper is greater. So even though these things existed alongside then then conventional 12 bore chambered for the then standard paper case you shouldn't use, I was told, such cartridges in conventional guns.

Also to be noted is that the step or forcing cone on a gun using brass cases is wider than that using paper cases. Thus the reason these "Heath" guns were called "chamberless" guns. Therefore AFAIK using brass cases and wads to correctly fit those cases may cause issues if used in a gun with a forcing cone designed for standard paper cases. However that may be what was in the past and modern brass cases might be not the same.

It is for others to say if I'm right or not right.

Here's three links:


books.google.co.uk

How To Shoot - Some Lessons In The Science Of Shot Gun Shooting

Many of the earliest books, particularly those dating back to the 1900s and before, are now extremely scarce and increasingly expensive. We are republishing these classic works in affordable, high quality, modern editions, using the original text and artwork.
books.google.co.uk

IGC Archive - Heath chamber-less guns

www.internetgunclub.com www.internetgunclub.com
 
enfieldspares said:
Oh! No! But I may be wrong.

At one time brass cases were for guns built on the "Heath" principle. The so called "chamberless" 12 bore.

That is you can get near 10 bore performance out of a gun of regular 12 bore external dimensions and 12 bore weight as, as others rightly say, the internal diameter of a brass case compared with then then usual paper is greater. So even though these things existed alongside then then conventional 12 bore chambered for the then standard paper case you shouldn't use, I was told, such cartridges in conventional guns.

Also to be noted is that the step or forcing cone on a gun using brass cases is wider than that using paper cases. Thus the reason these "Heath" guns were called "chamberless" guns. Therefore AFAIK using brass cases and wads to correctly fit those cases may cause issues if used in a gun with a forcing cone designed for standard paper cases. However that may be what was in the past and modern brass cases might be not the same.

It is for others to say if I'm right or not right.

Here's three links:


books.google.co.uk

How To Shoot - Some Lessons In The Science Of Shot Gun Shooting

Many of the earliest books, particularly those dating back to the 1900s and before, are now extremely scarce and increasingly expensive. We are republishing these classic works in affordable, high quality, modern editions, using the original text and artwork.
books.google.co.uk

IGC Archive - Heath chamber-less guns

www.internetgunclub.com www.internetgunclub.com
Click to expand...
It's not a problem really. Card and fibre wads a gauge up in size to fill the case soon swage down a treat. I'm sure there is plenty info on the web.
I loaded mine with black powder and sealed the over shot card with clear nail varnish.
I did have some photographs but photobicket is being mean!
 
Better to wait for biodegrable plastic shells or some form of improved cardboard case.

Looked into these for a little bit but found that unless you have some form of jig to get consistent wad pressure *how tightly the components are packed together* before sealing you will get very inconsistent results. Another things is the possibility of the brass shell getting stuck in you chamber.
 
So yes it can be done
there are methods to seal the end
it's a reusable commodity
just needs a manufacturer to get it consistent
weight and cost - weight, seen some of the Chinese infantry rounds, they can carry more than us. cost, that's equal to all?
why, why wait for anything to decompose

case question - if modern composite is thin/strong/reusable (or use metal) and we move to steel surely the piston of metal has changed so why a wad - I'm sure the rifle/pistol reloading fraternity has the answers

Hooke's Law - to find a metal, indium? (Chinese add this to their brass)
Bismuth - radiation decaying metal containing arsenic. ummmm
 
Colonel said:
Don’t you have to have a cup wad that keeps the steel shot from touching the barrel? I’ve never loaded steel.
Click to expand...
I don't reload shot shells but I have sold shotguns and shells. An unbuffered column of steel shot will disperse due to kinetic energy. With no wad cup it will eat the barrel of the shotgun (One of the early complaints of steel loads) Maybe I'm off, but I'm not certain I'd do it to a decent shotgun. ~Muir
 
I have a 12b gun chambered for three inch perfect cases thin bras with a semi crimp this was slightly open and needed top card plastic wads dont work in these and only good felt wads work. Dave
 
If the brass cases inside diameter is larger than a plastic or paper, then the shot column would have to reduce to go through the forcing cone, I can’t see a problem with lead but I can with steel. Or am I wrong?
 
Colonel said:
If the brass cases inside diameter is larger than a plastic or paper, then the shot column would have to reduce to go through the forcing cone, I can’t see a problem with lead but I can with steel. Or am I wrong?
Click to expand...
It's not that much greater than what already happens. Don't over think it.
The big issue is lack of a strong crimp which is important for initial pressure development before volume increases.
If you think of how an engine ignites it's fuel air mix before tdc of the piston to acquire a clean burn and high pressure at the right time thus is the effect of a good crimp closure.
 
Smellydog said:
It's not that much greater than what already happens. Don't over think it.
The big issue is lack of a strong crimp which is important for initial pressure development before volume increases.
If you think of how an engine ignites it's fuel air mix before tdc of the piston to acquire a clean burn and high pressure at the right time thus is the effect of a good crimp closure.
Click to expand...
agree, but think resistance from the end (crimp/wad/wax/varnish - sealant) is required to build up release pressure
Muir said:
I don't reload shot shells but I have sold shotguns and shells. An unbuffered column of steel shot will disperse due to kinetic energy. With no wad cup it will eat the barrel of the shotgun (One of the early complaints of steel loads) Maybe I'm off, but I'm not certain I'd do it to a decent shotgun. ~Muir
Click to expand...
~Muir, I've been waiting for you, respect but think off...
 
kimh said:
agree, but think resistance from the end (crimp/wad/wax/varnish - sealant) is required to build up release pressure

~Muir, I've been waiting for you, respect but think off...
Click to expand...
I don't have to think anything, I have done the brass 12g case thing many years ago sonny.
What ever one uses to seal the end of a brass shotgun cartridge it will never match the resistance of a star crimp closure or a roll crimp. That coupled with the fact they don't use 209 primers but the lesser rifle primers all conspire to bad or poor ignition of normal shotgun powders other than black powder or the black powder substitutes.
It is vitally important to use 10g or 11g wads or stamped cards and glue them in the case with nail varnish to form another method of forming the resistance needed for good initial ignition of smokeless.
Got it now, are we done?
 
kimh said:
~Muir, I've been waiting for you, respect but think off...
Click to expand...
I might be, as I don't reload for shotgun, but I do know something about it -or used to. Give it a try and let us know how you make out. ~Muir
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

For Sale: 16 bore reloaded and components
Replies
1
Views
299
rielly
R
Sold: 12 bore reloading components
Replies
5
Views
592
iain b
iain b
For Sale: Assorted 223 Brass and 300win brass
Replies
14
Views
761
Griffo13
Griffo13
Shotgun 12g shells mix and 5.56mm brass.
Replies
0
Views
374
MagicLantern
MagicLantern
Fibre wad steel shot wildfowling cartridges
Replies
7
Views
2K
deerstalker.308
deerstalker.308
New Avon Arms
Back
Top