Bulging Neck...!

My previous trip grunting was going on with a spiker coming back home, the trail cam has pinged a buck moving past but a tad out of range (in the early hours) to work what he was like, weather has swung to the West so juggling a bit of dry time (at the right time) is high on the list.
Half way to the ground, black sky's and driving rain! Has Sara Keith-Lucas (BBC East) weather girl spun a tale!
A few miles to go and the sky was clearing the saying I have followed for a long time is "rain stops deer come out" but this time the usually busy part was very quiet, the west wind is not the best but 2 seats around 200 yds apart gives me a bit more choice.
Muntjac and Cock pheasant's were doing their thing, then a a couple of does ran past and back again followed by this lad, then again but this time he came to a halt with my best bahh
Not a big animal a tad stinky with his flanks hollow from not eating as the field gralloch was good but the usual large main gut was empty, still lots of fat but he was in need of sex not food!
Once loaded I parked the truck at the top of the track for a coffee and a listen, grunting from the distance so perhaps that explained why it was a tad slow, but one more less which is why I go.

 

[Tim.243]

@Tim.243 @Norfolk Deer Search @GBR66
Ahhh - I understand. I'm sorry I mislead you - I meant 'class' as in category rather than quality.
This category being a regular buck that's out of the doe group, not in the main rutting action but nonetheless out and about looking for whatever action he can get.

@Mike1979 The respect bit was more to do with shooting him right now. They're wild deer that have been waiting nearly a year for the action and the respectful thing, in my view, is to do with disrupting the behaviour of the wild herd overall rather than the individuals and so to shoot them before or after and leave them be during, unless there's a over-riding reason. (Obviously it's just my view. After all, we all have different views on respect for them - for example, @VSS argues that it is more respectful to shoot a deer with minimal carcass damage, whereas, for me, the main thing is that it's dead & done quickly.)


It's neither - it's just a case of priorities and getting the fallow numbers down around me is a big one. I use the model to try and influence neighbouring landowners to expect higher doe numbers in their culls. It changes attitudes, helps them understand that this is a long game and just shooting on sight & getting "brown bodies laying on the deck. Nothing more nothing less" is not necessarily going to get the results (yield/££) that they ultimately want. Over time, and with a lot of resentment obviously, the approach is starting to pay off.

>>as soon as the 1st of November comes that is it glove are off non-stop every minute you’ve got spare
Precisely.

It was just a Yes or No nothing to complicated, you have missed the boat when finding time to complain or fiddle with your slide rule
I will just carry on per the owners requests as they are all transient
I did let this chap go the other day but the Fallow take the hit.




(same farm as your buck )

(oh no)

Paddling pool buck no Gene pool ticket for him

 

[Donkey Basher]

Take a very basic population model for fallow, working on the assumption of 80% female, which has been shown to be typical in the large fallow herds in the south and east, from various drone surveys and confirmed by Ben Harrower at the FC Worcester mtg.

View attachment 443100

From a herd of 100, if you cull 46 each year (which obviously is a lot to ask), 23 bucks and 23 does, the number after 5 years is much the same; 18 bucks and 28 does, the overall number has dropped and the percentage does has dropped; 28 bucks and 18 does, the number has risen and the percentage does has risen. So obviously taking bucks does contribute to the overall number but nowhere near as much as taking does.

So in @wytonpjs's video - along with the comment that one shot and they're all sitting in a neighbouring sanctuary (all too familiar a situation) - why whack a buck now, rather than let them be settled and stick it to the does in 10 days time? In those situations, every buck you shoot makes taking the next doe more difficult. Well, that has been the experience around here, where the number/density of fallow have been very similar to those in the video clip.

So, if reducing the numbers is really the objective, then shooting a buck now can be counter-productive. If, on the other hand, the objective is to scare them away, then fair dos. And realistically, without a really good take up of co-operating landowners over a large area, that's pretty much the best one can hope for.

I am fiercely anti the BDS's campaign that seems to suggest that deer are being seen as vermin because that sends the message that culling deer is wrong. How can that be in the best interests of and welfare of deer. Equally, Dominic Griffith's BDS article that effectively said that the fallow deer problem is now so difficult to deal with that we might as well roll over and love the deer, was utterly shocking.

We need to take the fallow situation seriously yet, they are still wild deer, it's not their fault and we ought to treat them with a little respect.

I am all for whacking as many as possible to try and keep them in check but with a bit of discretion, we can make our efforts a lot more effective.

Sorry to say that there is a fundamental flaw in that ‘model’ - in fact I’d go so far as to say it’s a very basic school boy error!

The ‘model’ starts with an assumed 80% does & 20% bucks which I’ll not disagree with. However, in each year the number of young born is an even split of 50/50.

If that is the case, how did the original population reach 80/20, OR, should the newborns be split 80/20?

I know that there will be a statistician along to offer wisdom on probability & sample size, etc. but from anecdotal evidence my experience is that the newborns are much higher proportion of females than males - as the acceptance of 80/20 at herd level would demonstrate. Hence reworking the ‘model’ using the 80/20 split will soon show how the population is growing faster than its being managed.

Unless of course some of the 80% females are males who now identify as female… but let’s not go there

In addition, & again anecdotally for those who are statisticians, we are seeing an increased number of twins being born to fallow does each season.

Personally my management strategy for fallow is shoot does all winter, prickets & buck fawns if they’re a second/third shot or on their own. Shoot prickets & crappy bucks in August. Leave all well alone, & undisturbed, until November then get stuck into the does again.

 

[Leec6.5]

Sorry to say that there is a fundamental flaw in that ‘model’ - in fact I’d go so far as to say it’s a very basic school boy error!

The ‘model’ starts with an assumed 80% does & 20% bucks which I’ll not disagree with. However, in each year the number of young born is an even split of 50/50.

If that is the case, how did the original population reach 80/20, OR, should the newborns be split 80/20?

I know that there will be a statistician along to offer wisdom on probability & sample size, etc. but from anecdotal evidence my experience is that the newborns are much higher proportion of females than males - as the acceptance of 80/20 at herd level would demonstrate. Hence reworking the ‘model’ using the 80/20 split will soon show how the population is growing faster than its being managed.

Unless of course some of the 80% females are males who now identify as female… but let’s not go there

In addition, & again anecdotally for those who are statisticians, we are seeing an increased number of twins being born to fallow does each season.

Personally my management strategy for fallow is shoot does all winter, prickets & buck fawns if they’re a second/third shot or on their own. Shoot prickets & crappy bucks in August. Leave all well alone, & undisturbed, until November then get stuck into the does again.

You have very tolerant land owners, here in hillbilly Norfolk they see brown they want it down, they have zero apprehension of what’s in season and what’s not if it’s eating their crops they want it dead.


Deer management plans went out the window on my ground 10 years ago!

Bloody pity they don’t grow sugar beet any more, then that makes life easy, extraction a little bit more difficult but on the red deer the Farmer he doesn’t care I’ve driven throug a rape field summer and winter I’ve driven through Sugarbeat. I’ve even driven through standing wheat with a quad trailer, he wants them gone.

When I apologised for damage, he said in broad Norfolk, “you’re doing more good than harm boy get on with it!”

 

[Tim.243]

Sorry to say that there is a fundamental flaw in that ‘model’ - in fact I’d go so far as to say it’s a very basic school boy error!

The ‘model’ starts with an assumed 80% does & 20% bucks which I’ll not disagree with. However, in each year the number of young born is an even split of 50/50.

If that is the case, how did the original population reach 80/20, OR, should the newborns be split 80/20?

I know that there will be a statistician along to offer wisdom on probability & sample size, etc. but from anecdotal evidence my experience is that the newborns are much higher proportion of females than males - as the acceptance of 80/20 at herd level would demonstrate. Hence reworking the ‘model’ using the 80/20 split will soon show how the population is growing faster than its being managed.

Unless of course some of the 80% females are males who now identify as female… but let’s not go there

In addition, & again anecdotally for those who are statisticians, we are seeing an increased number of twins being born to fallow does each season.

Personally my management strategy for fallow is shoot does all winter, prickets & buck fawns if they’re a second/third shot or on their own. Shoot prickets & crappy bucks in August. Leave all well alone, & undisturbed, until November then get stuck into the does again.

The wheels fell off in his first post when mentioning depressing and firearms in the same sentence

 

[paul o']

Nice cull buck there Tim !
I Forgot to ask do you shoot deer for pleasure or as per requests from the land owner ?
Are they pets like park deer for the pleasure of the Joe public and to allow dog owners like Fenton to chace them down !
Are they free to roam from one estate to another or canned park deer and thus have a planed removal on a yearly basis behind closed doors as it were !
What is the owners outlook on more income from the benefit or your clearance of crop munches?.
Carry on Tim .
Ps I already know the answers pity some aren't.
We all love to copy and paste pmsl so here is a little light reading:-
AI Overview



+4


the deer population in the UK is believed to be at its highest level in 1,000 years. Estimates suggest there are between 1.5 and 2 million deer, significantly more than the population in the mid-1970s. This increase is due to a lack of natural predators and factors like land use changes, and it has led to concerns about damage to woodlands and crops.

• Population size:
  The number of deer is estimated to be between 1.5 and 2 million, a significant rise from around 450,000 in the mid-1970s.
  
  
• Historical comparison:
  The current population is thought to be higher than at any point in the last millennium.
  
  
• Reasons for growth:
  The growth is attributed to the absence of natural predators, land use changes, and the adaptability of species like roe and muntjac deer.
  
  
• Impacts of growth:
  The high number of deer causes challenges, such as damage to woodlands, crops, and other plant life, which affects biodiversity and other wildlife.
  
  
• Management:
  To manage the growing population, deer culling is carried out to keep populations stable and prevent economic and environmental damage.

 

[AGR]

We really can't be very far from copying the Scottish style deer management with the fallow herds. Forget seasons, and allow night shooting.
If there's up to 2 million of them, even Tim.243 won't keep up.

 

[Tim.243]

We really can't be very far from copying the Scottish style deer management with the fallow herds. Forget seasons, and allow night shooting.
If there's up to 2 million of them, even Tim.243 won't keep up.

As Lance Corporal Jack Jones said... "They don't like it up 'em!".

 

[Nickb]

We really can't be very far from copying the Scottish style deer management with the fallow herds. Forget seasons, and allow night shooting.

Good idea , something needs to change.

 

[User100]

Sorry to say that there is a fundamental flaw in that ‘model’ - in fact I’d go so far as to say it’s a very basic school boy error!

The ‘model’ starts with an assumed 80% does & 20% bucks which I’ll not disagree with. However, in each year the number of young born is an even split of 50/50.

If that is the case, how did the original population reach 80/20, OR, should the newborns be split 80/20?

I know that there will be a statistician along to offer wisdom on probability & sample size, etc. but from anecdotal evidence my experience is that the newborns are much higher proportion of females than males - as the acceptance of 80/20 at herd level would demonstrate. Hence reworking the ‘model’ using the 80/20 split will soon show how the population is growing faster than its being managed.

Unless of course some of the 80% females are males who now identify as female… but let’s not go there

In addition, & again anecdotally for those who are statisticians, we are seeing an increased number of twins being born to fallow does each season.

Your anecdotal evidence is interesting. Do you (or anyone?) keep records of foetal sex? I know you have a lot more data to draw upon than I do but for my last ~150 does that have had sufficiently well developed foetuses to be sexed, the foetal sex ratio has been pretty well 50:50. Nowhere near big enough a sample to draw anything conclusive but that's what I've found so far. I have yet to find twin foetuses but this year was the first on my patch to see twins on the ground.

>>If that is the case, how did the original population reach 80/20
I have always attributed this to does being much better at staying alive, either from natural mortality or getting shot. Staying in the groups must put them at an advantage - I hardly ever see a single doe out on its own asking for it but bucks...

Add that to the general preference for shooting bucks and that for stalkers with full time jobs, the doe season is limited to weekends only, with a lot of other things competing for time.

Personally my management strategy for fallow is shoot does all winter, prickets & buck fawns if they’re a second/third shot or on their own. Shoot prickets & crappy bucks in August. Leave all well alone, & undisturbed, until November then get stuck into the does again.

Absolutely 100%.

 

[Tim.243]

I think people should be left to manage the ground between themselves and the wishes of the landowner as each bit of ground is different to the next