Bullets or Heads. "30-06" or "30 ought Six"

[John Gryphon]

My idea (I know it's contentious) is to use the correct terms/names

Tell that to Cynthia Bucket .

 

[Alantoo]

That's what we need, a simple answer, clearly defined and easy to understand ......
My idea (I know it's contentious) is to use the correct terms/names

Exactly.

“Stag” clarifies.

“Head” obscures.

“Cartridge head” … to which end do
I refer?

Alan

 

[levigsp]

We in the UK stick with this dogged distinction between Stags and Hinds for two of our six species, but use Bucks and Does for the other four, with people who use the terms incorrectly being castigated without mercy, but can anyone explain why we have this difference in terminology, after all they are all either male or female deer.

Its the same the same across the seas, America it Bull and cow and Buck and Doe, in most of Europe its Bull and Cow but roe are interesting in that they are often Billy, goat and kid.!

 

[hybridfiat]

I have been shooting for 50 years, I first saw a bullet refered to as a "head" here in this forum 2 years ago.

I first heard the 30-06 referred to as the "ought six" by an old Australian gunsmith who had served alongside Yanks in Korea.
Every other shooter I have met in Oz and the UK has said "Thirty O Six".

 

[Dalua]

We in the UK stick with this dogged distinction between Stags and Hinds for two of our six species, but use Bucks and Does for the other four, with people who use the terms incorrectly being castigated without mercy, but can anyone explain why we have this difference in terminology, after all they are all either male or female deer.

Yes - it's ludicrous. Like using bulls/cows for cattle, and tup/yow for sheep, billy/nanny for goats, boar/sow for swine.

In fact, why don't we just use one noun for everything in the whole world - that would keep things simple, and the context would invariably make misunderstandings impossible!

 

[Woodsmoke]

My idea (I know it's contentious) is to use the correct terms/names

Burn him! Burn him!

 

[Miki]

You watchit or i'll turn you into a Newt.

 

[Scotty99]

I have not tesearched it, but there is an obvious advantage to making a distinction between buck and stag. One word “Stag” gives both sex and size, and prior to Sika introduction identified deer species as far as UK goes. So it does carry more information.

Stag gave you all the information contained in “male red deer” in one word. Now it defines “large male deer” in the UK.

“Bullet head” is like calling a male deer a “Stag Buck” or saying “Stag deer”.

Analogies to buck and stag could be to restrict “head” to bullets under say .243 and bullet for those above. Or “head” for live quarry projectiles and bullet for targets.

Alan

I think you are right about deer naming. If we go back far enough, before there were any invasive species ( I subscribe to the view that fallow were introduced by the Normans not the Romans), so we are going back to pre conquest times, then there were only Reds and Roe (the only true native species) so you could well imagine the inhabitants of Britain at that time having a single word for each type and sex of deer.

Stag = Big male deer
Hind = Big female deer
Buck = Small male deer
Doe = Small female deer

Maybe an expert on ancient linguistics might be able to trace the origin of these words to languages in use at the time.

With the emergence of invasive species Sika got tagged Stag / Hind as genetically similar to Reds and the other three picked up the moniker Buck / Doe.

As for bullets they are bullets not heads, but I can see why they are referred to as heads, as most of the population at large call the whole thing (primer, case and bullet) a bullet so some people use the term bullet head to specify exactly to which component they are referring.

However we purists should persist with the use of the term bullet for the pointy bit.

 

[Scotty99]

I have been shooting for 50 years, I first saw a bullet refered to as a "head" here in this forum 2 years ago.

I first heard the 30-06 referred to as the "ought six" by an old Australian gunsmith who had served alongside Yanks in Korea.
Every other shooter I have met in Oz and the UK has said "Thirty O Six".

It depends who you meet and mix with, I call mine a 30-ought-6 as I’m pretty much consider myself to be an Anglo-American having worked for American companies for over 30 years and having a son, daughter-in-law and now grandson who are all American citizens living in Georgia and I’ve been a regularly visitor to the states for as many years as I can remember. So you pick up patterns of speech based on who you interact with.

 

[geoffw]

More interesting would be to know why people get out of their prams to defend their right to call a bullet a "head".

The etymological derivation, and usage of "bullet" by all the actual bullet manufacturers (yes, even Sako with their hammerhead bullets) is never countered by an equally logical explanation of any advantage of renaming them heads. Let alone "bullet heads".

The nearest to an explanation/justification is the anthropomorphising of the cartridge parts that @ejg always proposes in these discussions...body, shoulder, neck, head. But then he always ignores the fact that the cartridge case neck ends with the case mouth...his "head" is now being seated in the "mouth"...if the bullet just perched on the end of the case neck, maybe there would be a justification...but it doesn't.

He also ignores pistol and 22LR straight wall cartridges which have no shoulders or necks in this anthropomorphic justification.

But as an engineer I am surprised that he doesn't appear to acknowledge or accept that the manufacturers of cartridge cases, named the case's parts after the processes of manufacture.

So the stamping press produces the basic cup or slug.The drawing press produces the tube. The primer end is then headed up. Formed in the same way that a rivet or a bolt is headed up by pressure on the end whether rimmed or rimless. The primer pocket and head markings are then stamped in.

This gives rise to the gunsmith's term "headspace". It is important everybody knows what is meant by that...there have been a number of occasions on here when newby reloaders have confused headspace with the jump to the lands dimension.

The case tube is necked down in a swage or necking die and the step down/transition thus produced is referred to as a shoulder in just the same way of the shoulder surrounding a tenon in joinery.

There is a good reason why bullet should continue to describe the projectile.

If for any reason you really couldn't bring yourself to use "bullet" then it would be less confusing if a word other than "head" be used. For instance, given the fact that @ejg wants to ignore the engineering terms and anthropomorphise the cartridge then something that sticks out of a mouth like "tongue" or goes into a mouth like "bite" or "bolus" would be more logical...bolus would actually be quite elegant with its bullet, boullette, boulle similarity.

What I find strange is the arguing for the perceived advantage of temporarily changing the bullet manufacturer's own description of bullet to "head" by the retailer and purchaser...but then reverting to bullet to describe the holes made in the target.

A

More interesting would be to know why people get out of their prams to defend their right to call a bullet a "head".

The etymological derivation, and usage of "bullet" by all the actual bullet manufacturers (yes, even Sako with their hammerhead bullets) is never countered by an equally logical explanation of any advantage of renaming them heads. Let alone "bullet heads".

The nearest to an explanation/justification is the anthropomorphising of the cartridge parts that @ejg always proposes in these discussions...body, shoulder, neck, head. But then he always ignores the fact that the cartridge case neck ends with the case mouth...his "head" is now being seated in the "mouth"...if the bullet just perched on the end of the case neck, maybe there would be a justification...but it doesn't.

He also ignores pistol and 22LR straight wall cartridges which have no shoulders or necks in this anthropomorphic justification.

But as an engineer I am surprised that he doesn't appear to acknowledge or accept that the manufacturers of cartridge cases, named the case's parts after the processes of manufacture.

So the stamping press produces the basic cup or slug.The drawing press produces the tube. The primer end is then headed up. Formed in the same way that a rivet or a bolt is headed up by pressure on the end whether rimmed or rimless. The primer pocket and head markings are then stamped in.

This gives rise to the gunsmith's term "headspace". It is important everybody knows what is meant by that...there have been a number of occasions on here when newby reloaders have confused headspace with the jump to the lands dimension.

The case tube is necked down in a swage or necking die and the step down/transition thus produced is referred to as a shoulder in just the same way of the shoulder surrounding a tenon in joinery.

There is a good reason why bullet should continue to describe the projectile.

If for any reason you really couldn't bring yourself to use "bullet" then it would be less confusing if a word other than "head" be used. For instance, given the fact that @ejg wants to ignore the engineering terms and anthropomorphise the cartridge then something that sticks out of a mouth like "tongue" or goes into a mouth like "bite" or "bolus" would be more logical...bolus would actually be quite elegant with its bullet, boullette, boulle similarity.

What I find strange is the arguing for the perceived advantage of temporarily changing the bullet manufacturer's own description of bullet to "head" by the retailer and purchaser...but then reverting to bullet to describe the holes made in the target.

Alan

Interesting, thank you, school day.

Engineer- yes, that figures, I always had you for a lawyer myself

 

[Alantoo]

Interesting, thank you, school day.

I did get a teacher’s certificate in handicraft and art back in the early 1970s but I never had a job as a teacher.

Engineer- yes, that figures, I always had you for a lawyer myself

@ejg is the engineer. I am a blacksmith, and not even a barrack room lawyer!

Alan

 

[old keeper]

"Permissions" and Bunnies really get me going, but then I'm old!

 

[Frank Homes]

People saying 7 by 57 when they mean .275 Rigby.........

S

It was originally called a 7x57 wasn't it? .275 is just the imperial measurement.

 

[Miki]

Worms, bags of them ...

7x57 (7x57 Mauser) denotes a 7mm bullet (actually 7.25mm or .285") seated in a case which is 57mm long/tall which is also known as the .275 Rigby.
Not to be confused with the .275H&H Magnum which has a 7.29mm (.287") bullet in a 64mm (2.5") case ie. a different chambering entirely, or the 7x64 Brenneke with its 7.25mm bullet and 64mm case.

 

[Apthorpe]

"Permissions" and Bunnies really get me going, but then I'm old!

Do you mean perms? And there's nothing wrong with harvesting a few bunnies, it's good practice whether it's with my rimmy, one of my shotties or the tackdriving tactical weapon system in a custom chassis I'm running.

 

[stevenedwards]

Tolerance is important and there can be another valid point of view. Therefor can we expect retailers on here who miss use the term "head" to help us by explaining why they do it, or is that expecting too much ?

 

[Alantoo]

"Permissions" and Bunnies really get me going, but then I'm old!

What description do you prefer to call areas where you have permission to shoot but do not pay for them like sporting rights or a lease?

Ground?

“Permissions” seems to describe the areas where I can shoot fairly well. It is also the word the police use when asking for evidence of good reason to have an FAC.

Alan

 

[User00033]

To… er… all of you. Go for a farkin’ walk for chrissakes…

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Bread roll, bap, batch, barm cake, scuffler. Agh! How can you order in a bakers?
Bullet heads or dick heads? .

 

[Alantoo]

To… er… all of you. Go for a farkin’ walk for chrissakes…

Sorry, I was out for a walk otherwise I would have responded sooner.

So you feel you are in a position of authority to demand we should go for a walk?

And this is because you feel it is not acceptable to you, for us to choose to spend our time discussing the use of the words related to shooting and deer? And this in a thread inviting us to discuss these very issues on a stalking forum?

But it is acceptable for you to spend your time looking up and posting a cartoon about pedantry along with your edict as to what we should do, and pointedly not contribute to the actual subject of thread?

Surely you jest?

Alan