Caliber Choice

[Thar]

what i meant was i do not chase velocity with hunting bullets, and by heavy i meant say 120-180 grns 6.5 - 30 cal stuff- not 55-100 .243" .222" stuff

I have never mention any bullet below 95gn for the 243, sorry Kent you are splitting hairs here, for you to call 120gn heavy and 100gn bullets lights looses your argument credibility, you are trying to make a argument that anybody with a reasonable understanding of ballistics will see has no validity.

3000 fps is very fast for an avarage deer bullet say 150 grns - your avarage 22" barrel .308" win could not achieve this generally and safely

I never said anything about 150gn so don't put words into my mouth to try and back your argument I would say that 150gn bullet is only Commonly use in .30 cal rifles in the UK, most stalker are in general if not using 100gn 243s are using 120-140gn bullets in .25,6.5,270,7mm I know some people like lighter bullets (95gn in 260 as an example) The about 3000fps figure was a convenient round figure as a bench mark give it 200fps either way and that covers most calibres from 308 based cases to WSMs but as a illustration all the these calibre are capable of 3000fps while remaining within safe working pressures using a minimum of 100gn bullets:- 243, 25-06,260,284X6.5,270,7-08,7-57,280,7X64,308,30-06.

2450 - 2600 fps with such a bullet is what i term slow and heavy.

You are splitting hairs again Kent ,but you had to say a min' of 2450fps as that is the legal min' in Scotland and you can't say anything faster than 2600fps because then that will be seen as fast, so to support your first statement you did not have alot of room for anything else did you? So we have a Magic window of 150fps that bullet work irrespective of there construction. RATFLMAO

Interestingly when i develop a load for a stalking rifle i don't useually chrnograph the speed

-

So how do you know if they are deer legal in that 20" barrel?

Incidently didn't Bell like the 6.5 because it cut a clean staight path to the brain -

No he got rid of it and got a .275 Rigby (7mm) with which he went on to shot most of his elephants, but he only used solid bronze bullets “never has a soft point bullet fouled my barrels” was one of his quotes. But what relevance shooting elephants though the brain at 30yrds with a solid bronze slug has to the average UK deer stalker I will be bugged if I know.

i wonder if this is an advantage in the sweeds penetration and killing reputation it's long pencil like bullet?

The 6.4 and 6.8mm bullets have Comparable Sectional densities, am I now having to repeat myself? I am sure I have pointed that out before.

speed don't kill deer lumps of lead in the right place do!

OK Kent lets look at a 6.5X55 and compare it to my choice of 6.5mm cartridge the 6.5-06 we will use one of you favourite heavy bullets say 160gn the 6.5X55 give us a velocity of 2300fps and a muzzle energy of 1879 foot pounds, the 6.5-06 gives a muzzle velocity of 2800fps and 2785 foot pounds of energy assuming we are using properly constructed bullets. Which will kill better the 1875flbs or the 2785flbs. Go on tell me that a cartridge producing 914lbs of energy less will kill better.

More velocity means better expansion of the bullet leading to bigger wound channel and more hydrostat shock, in the right place thans what kills deer.

the 45-70 you mention has killed shed loads of big critters around the world yet fails in our law on speed how dumb is that when you can use .222 and .223 in scotland on roe ? and in England on Munties and water deer soon ?

I don't recommend a 222/223 for deer unless you have a deer dog which says it all.

Best rgds

Thar

 

[Thar]

Not pushing at all heaven forbid Ramming but bot pushing
Life gets boring if all we talk about is gamekings and ballistic tips. I have boxes full of them which I use only for plinking now.

Seriously I have no commercial interest in the bullets in any way, I pay for them like the rest.

I just think they are more interesting generally and I dont waste lots of powder/range fees or barrel life load developing.

Regards

Mark[/quote

Hi Mark just read a very interesting article in the latest NRA magazine giving some info’ as why solid copper/bronze bullets have been banned form all NRA rangers, scary stuff I must say , I don’t think I will be using them.

Best rgds

Thar

 

[MarkH]

Thar

I found this on the NRA Website

Prohibition of Solid Copper or Bronze Bullets
A recent incident has brought to light the fact that solid copper or bronze bullets (i.e. with no lead core) have been trialled and shot on at least two ranges. A significant number of these bullets have been found not to have behaved in the same way as bullets made with a conventional lead and gilding metal combination, causing spent bullets to exit the stop butt in unpredictable directions despite none having actually exited a danger area as far as we know. There is therefore the distinct possibility that their ricochet characteristics may differ markedly from conventional bullets. The retained velocity and the maximum range achievable is also significantly increased.
Range Danger Areas are defined on the basis of conventional bullets with a lead core (using both ballistic and ricochet data) and the Range Danger Areas of Bisley ranges (both Century and Stickledown) lie very close to public roads and housing at their extremities. Since we do not yet have enough information on which to base a risk-assessed judgement, it will be necessary to prohibit the use of 'solid' bullets on any of the Bisley Ranges with immediate effect until an informed judgement can be made.

Advice is being sought from the Technical Advisory Section (TAS) at Warminster and from other technically qualified sources, and a decision [which may be based on parameters other than maximum muzzle velocity (MV) and muzzle energy (ME)] will be made as quickly as possible. While it is regretted that this unavoidably late notification may cause problems for some shooters or competitors in the Imperial Meeting your understanding and compliance in maintaining safe range procedures is requested and required.

Martin Farnan
Director of Shooting

KR/MF

Pray tell what these hazards are. I know quite a bit direct from the horses mouth from this incident and 'if true' no bullet on this planet could have ended up where those were found due to normal ricochet. I say no more.

Seriously I would be very interested what they found out from Warminster.

Mark

 

[cervus]

Calibre Choice

I have read the threads and probably everybody is right to have an affinity with what works for them..the reality is however that the shooter is only as good as he or she is in the field, anyone can have a bad day regardless of calibre..if the rifle is accurate, the scope suitable and correctly zeroed, the range within that zeroing range achieved and the deer are present then pushing a calibre to the limit by for example by some excessive holding over, or other such methods to achieve a kill are questionable...we are deer stalkers.ie hunters by definition and the perfect shot, again regardless of calibre is the one that is correctly placed , humane and within the capabilities of the shooter, ammunition, rifle and optics..all components which must be part of the outcome..all errors in this process are normally due to a failure in one or more of these components - if you shot a red stag in the rut with a 222 it would kill it if you hit it in the head at close range in the brain,but the law is what it is and a good thing too.... so in summary the calibre debate is academic, if any of the components of the shot are missing. IMHO

 

[MacNab]

Re: Calibre Choice

I have read the threads and probably everybody is right to have an affinity with what works for them..the reality is however that the shooter is only as good as he or she is in the field, anyone can have a bad day regardless of calibre..if the rifle is accurate, the scope suitable and correctly zeroed, the range within that zeroing range achieved and the deer are present then pushing a calibre to the limit by for example by some excessive holding over, or other such methods to achieve a kill are questionable...we are deer stalkers.ie hunters by definition and the perfect shot, again regardless of calibre is the one that is correctly placed , humane and within the capabilities of the shooter, ammunition, rifle and optics..all components which must be part of the outcome..all errors in this process are normally due to a failure in one or more of these components - if you shot a red stag in the rut with a 222 it would kill it if you hit it in the head at close range in the brain,but the law is what it is and a good thing too.... so in summary the calibre debate is academic, if any of the components of the shot are missing. IMHO

IMHO this a very good summary. I'd only add find one calibre and one bullet for everything; at least you can do that comfortably in the UK with 25-06, 6.5 x55, 7 x 57 or .308 which must give a calibre choice that most people would be comfortable with. Stick with that policy and your chances of being a more consistant shot are much higher.

ATB

MacNab

 

[cervus]

Calibre Choice

Hi,Macnab..thanks for that I fully agree with your additional point....I only use Federal 100g 243 and Federal 150g factory ammo in my Sako 75s and the same 150gs in my Sauer 202 Outback, never missed a beat yet touchwood !!I may be old fashioned but if it ain,t broke don,t fix it !! I am sure that those who avidly homeload to achieve perfect results are experimental types who enjoy the aspect of preparing and proving their ammo and good luck to them...a box of 20 Federal means 20 deer to me if all goes to plan , as a professional deer manager that is all I need .

 

[MarkH]

Cervus

I think you are quite correct. I started homeloading because it was very difficult to get ammunition in 7x64, 375 and 458. For 243/308 decent ammunition is available on demand easily in many varieties.
458 factory worked out at £5.00 a round which was not conducive to practicing on the range. Homeloading brought the price down to £1.50.

Mark

 

[cervus]

Calibre Choice

Hi, Mark H, nice piccy , forgive my ignorance was that a wart hog tusk, hippo tooth, boar tusk or what? Definitely not from a Chinese Water Deer !!

 

[hummel]

Good grief.In the time it took me to read all the threads on this subject,poachers throughout GB have probably shot dozens of deer with rimfire .22s!!!!

 

[enfieldspares]

Pray tell what these hazards are. I know quite a bit direct from the horses mouth from this incident and 'if true' no bullet on this planet could have ended up where those were found due to normal ricochet. I say no more.

Ah. Well. Not quite the full story. Apparently these are not "Barnes-X" type bullets but an optimised for of bullet in a VLD (very low drag) shape. So that it has a different trajectory from a normal shape bullet of any construction.

Now as to what exactly was going on, ricochets or a wrong aim or sight setting putting them over the stop butt, I don't know. But they were not normal shape bullets (even in copper) that a stalker would use.

 

[flytie]

This calibre choice subject was one I researched heavily before i purchased a rifle of my own.

I was fortunate enough to be taken under the wing of four stalkers, two use .243's and 30-06's, one uses a 7x64 and the other, now sadly no longer with us, used a 6.5x55.

The two mates with .243's I stalked with most of all, and they "kindly" let me gralloch their deer. Of the 10 I did for them, 9 roe and 1 munty, 4 had burst rumens. All were perfect heart lung shots. They were using Lapua 100gn premium ammunition.

About this time Barry Holt, the deer manager at Cowdray Park did an article for Shooting Times, in which he said that the estate rifle he preferred clients to use was a 6.5x55. I was cheeky and emailed Cowdray asking Barry why he preferred the 6.5x55? Kindly he gave me his phone number and I rang him up and talked to him for several hours. He was an incredibly kind man and very free with his advice. His reason for asking clients to use the 6.5x55 was simple, carcass damage. If people insisted on using their .243's they did so on condition that they bought the carcass. A bit like John Robson and his dislike of plastic tipped bullets, his experience of many years told him that there would be carcass damage.

So, I bought a 6.5x55 because that was the largest calibre i could have (at that time) for deer and fox. I like my 6.5x55, I can see the bullet strike the deer and its reaction to the shot.

I have just started home loading and am playing with bullet types and makes, there are a huge variety to choose from. The 6.5x55 is not a magic calibre, but it has stood the test of time and is still popular. This must tell you something!

I have just applied for a variation on my FAC, I want a 7mm-08 as well

Atb, ft

 

[Brithunter]

I have just applied for a variation on my FAC, I want a 7mm-08 as well

Hmmm with your liking for the 6.5x55 I would have thought your choice would have been the old 7mm mauer .

Edit:- Oh Berger is selling some of their VLD's as suitable for hunting sooooooooooooooo.......................?

 

[flytie]

Hmmm with your liking for the 6.5x55 I would have thought your choice would have been the old 7mm mauer .

Edit:- Oh Berger is selling some of their VLD's as suitable for hunting sooooooooooooooo.......................?

BH, I did, for many years, want a 7x57. Hell fire, W D M Bell used one, Jim Corbett used a Westley Richards .275. Enough said! But two friends have 7mm-08s and i am impressed.

ft

 

[Brithunter]

BH, I did, for many years, want a 7x57. Hell fire, W D M Bell used one, Jim Corbett used a Westley Richards .275. Enough said! But two friends have 7mm-08s and i am impressed.

ft

Hmmm the book I read on Corbett said he used a Rigby with a silver oval in the cheek piece presented to him for slaying a particular man eater?

Oh do you know why the .275 Rigby uses a blunt almost rounded bullet?


Seems ole Rigby was hit in the head by a German bullet in the trenches and it glanced off his tin helmet. He later claimed that if had been a round nose instead of a spitzer it would have gone through his helmet and his head rather than glancing off so he used Rounded bullets for better straight line penetration in the .275.

The fastest I have personally see a deer drop was a Roe Buck down in Hampshire in 2003 shot at about 75 yards with the 7mm Mauser using RWS H-Mantle factory ammunition. MY BSA CF2 likes that ammo pity it's not easy to get around here.

 

[Sam]

I use a .243 mainly, and a .308 on the bigger stuff. I think if I was to have one Deer gun for the UK it would be a Tikka T3 Lite Stainless in 6.5x55. My farther uses on and it is a very good killing round. The meat damage is minimal and the recoil similar to a .243.

Have Fun with whatever yan get.


Sam

 

[flytie]

Hmmm the book I read on Corbett said he used a Rigby with a silver oval in the cheek piece presented to him for slaying a particular man eater?

Oh do you know why the .275 Rigby uses a blunt almost rounded bullet?

BH, My Jim Corbett Omnibus is out on loan at the moment, but there is a description of him picking up his new Westley Richards .275 from Mantons of Calcutta in it. The silver ovaled .275 was given to him as a presentation gift for slaying his last maneater and it was a Rigby. He openly admitted his nerve had gone by then! He is one of my heroes!

And no I didn't know about Mr Rigbys predeliction for round noses, thank you. I am none the wiser, but much better informed

ft

 

[buckup]

I own a .243 and a 7x64. I wish I'd brought the 6.5x55, and saved myself a shed load of cash by having just the one rifle. Far more bullet weight choice, and just big enough for boar as well as deer. Good luck and enjoy.

 

[bogtrotter]

As a young man I shot Roe with a .22LR then a .22 hornet later on as a professional stalker Red with a 6.5x54 none of which are legal now, until 1986 there was no restriction on what you shot deer with in Scotland.

Through out my career I have shot Deer with most calibres apart from the above mentioned 22-250 .222 .243 .244.270 .308
7x57 25-06 30-06

My all time favourite is .243 years ago stopped changing calibres for different species use 95gr bullets for foxing and Roe
and 100gr for Reds
Never had a problem shooting Highland Red Stags never been to Devon I do know you get them big down there, but have
shot big woodland Stags 26st plus with out any problem.

I would agree that if most of your stalking is in dense woodland a bigger calibre may be advisable, as even a heart shot stag in
the rut can run 30-40 yards when shot by .243 although he is dead on his feet this is not a problem on the open hill but can make him hard to find in thick woodland.

However I have seen a Stag shot in the boiler room with a .300 weatherby magnum carry on roaring for 30sec. before collapsing.

Things might be changing a bit now but for many years .243 was the choice of a large number of professional stalkers in Scotland.

I.M.O there is to much argument about calibres, provided its legal and you feel comfortable with it, go for it after all you can't get anymore dead than dead, far more important than the size of the bullet is the ability to put it in the right place.

 

[Brithunter]

BH, My Jim Corbett Omnibus is out on loan at the moment, but there is a description of him picking up his new Westley Richards .275 from Mantons of Calcutta in it. The silver ovaled .275 was given to him as a presentation gift for slaying his last maneater and it was a Rigby. He openly admitted his nerve had gone by then! He is one of my heroes!

And no I didn't know about Mr Rigbys predeliction for round noses, thank you. I am none the wiser, but much better informed

ft

Hmmm I cannot recall where I picked that snippet up. Might have been at Rigbys on my visit there to take my oen for a once over or it might have been from a member of the HBSA.. The book I read had the desription of his walk across London during the war using just his senses as he didn't know where he was staying even. I think Cities somewhat overawed him with all the buildings, traffic and bustle.

Now buckup,

I own a .243 and a 7x64. I wish I'd brought the 6.5x55, and saved myself a shed load of cash by having just the one rifle

Please don't say that some who knows me might see it and rub it in of course havign a back up rifle is useful at times that's my excuse and I am stickign to it. Just because my back up has a back up and so on that's not the point .