Certificate fees: a fair price for a fair service. BASC statement.

[timbrayford]

Lol - all of this discussion; it ssems to me that the simplest idea (although difficult to administer) would for shooters en masse to come up with a new firearms law, present it to the police/HO then thrash it out to come up with a mutually agreed set of rules/laws, which, to be honest is pretty much what we seem to do already when we read something on here, and then 10 -100 posts later we deckde what it means, and that is it, whether that is the actual (meaning of the) law or not!

As for price, one single department for the whole country would probably be significantly cheaper than the current system - it works for driving licences and passports!

We no longer have access to fully and semi -auto centrefires and handguns, all legal when the 1920 Act was drafted, and no one is likely to start an armed insurrection with anything that is currently legal under S1.
So why not broaden the role of S2, perhaps with the odd tweak to include all the current S1 weapons? atb Tim

 

[CWMMAN3738]

David's gon all quiet on us, lol
On a serious not BASC need to deliver on this one or take action personally I think the ACPO will give them something to keep them in the game as they like things as they are. They do whatever they like & we just suck it up like good children.

 

[timbrayford]

David's gon all quiet on us, lol
On a serious not BASC need to deliver on this one or take action personally I think the ACPO will give them something to keep them in the game as they like things as they are. They do whatever they like & we just suck it up like good children.

We have received from David the views of the executive and he has heard from many of us at grassroots level what we think, I hope that he has gone away to reflect on what has been said.atb Tim

 

[David63]

I have not gone quiet on this, I have been away all day working at the N Wales game fair, where I have also taken the opportunity to discuss these issues with two members of our firearms team who have been in discussion with ACPO.

As I said the emphasis is on with resisting cost increase and trying to sort out at a strategic as well as constabulary level an improvement in service delivery,

I am pleased to report that the 1 for 1 exchange issue is already in the pipe line, and we are in the process of putting proposals to the Home Office.

We are also in discussion with licencing managers on which issues cause them problems without any real benefit to ensuring public safety. Obviously if we can get the support of licencing managers to remove some of the issues that affect all of us, this puts BASC in a much stronger position to take the issues to the Home Office.

There may though be times when proposals get 'bottlenecked' at civil servant level, if this is the case, I will, after taking guidance from our political team, let you know so you can - if you are willing - take these problems to your MP and get your MP to start asking why the issues are not being taken forward.

David

 

[CWMMAN3738]

Hoped you'd take it in the spirit it was intended, lol.
Glad to see progress is being made on this and I'm sure the membership will do what they can as long as NO ONE rolls over we should get somewhere soon.

I have not gone quiet on this, I have been away all day working at the N Wales game fair, where I have also taken the opportunity to discuss these issues with two members of our firearms team who have been in discussion with ACPO.

As I said the emphasis is on with resisting cost increase and trying to sort out at a strategic as well as constabulary level an improvement in service delivery,

I am pleased to report that the 1 for 1 exchange issue is already in the pipe line, and we are in the process of putting proposals to the Home Office.

We are also in discussion with licencing managers on which issues cause them problems without any real benefit to ensuring public safety. Obviously if we can get the support of licencing managers to remove some of the issues that affect all of us, this puts BASC in a much stronger position to take the issues to the Home Office.

There may though be times when proposals get 'bottlenecked' at civil servant level, if this is the case, I will, after taking guidance from our political team, let you know so you can - if you are willing - take these problems to your MP and get your MP to start asking why the issues are not being taken forward.

David

 

[Eyefor]

If ACPO are suggesting a fair price for a fair service for FAC's then why is the Home Office asking for ONLY a £3000 deposit for immigrants from "high risk" Countries -

Quote

From November, a pilot scheme will target visitors from seven countries who will have to pay the government a form of cash guarantee or deposit to deter immigration abuse. They will forfeit the £3,000 if they overstay in Britain and fail to return to their home countries by the time their visa has expired.

Unquote

How much does it cost to round up and deport an over-stayer? A lot more than £3000 I would suggest?

That's discrimination?

 

[kes]

There has been a something for nothing increase - we were told a something for something increase would be the only acceptable way forward - it hasn't happened. Those who dictate to us don't bother with half-hearted responses from shooters orgs. In my experience the police respect strength of argument. We don't have that on our side (merely an apology for it and 'spin')and we will remain on the sidelines of what is 'done to us' and 'what it costs' as a result.
Let us not forget that vetting potential firearms owners is a 'public interest' problem - there is no service or political benefit in terrorists applying and receiving lawful weapons, so some of this work is for the 'public good'. Therefore what we pay should be sufficinet to determine we are reasonable people asking reasonably for, in one case our right and, the S1 case, for our good reason to be confirmed.
There is a national agenda running in the police to reduce firearms ownership - if it can't be done by poor service and irrational application of HO guidance, then why not increase the fees until a number can't afford the grant or renewal costs. Those with the wherewithall thank the powers that be for being 'benign'. Sorry its all ******* until they earn the increase - whatever was said at the first post on this thread.

 

[finnbear270]

AH WELL, back to normality then?

 

[enfieldspares]

Thank you KES.

A breath of fresh air as there seems to be no one else here who actually asks WHY shooters should have to pay for a FAC/SGC control that is imposed FOR PUBLIC BENEFIT and NOT FOR THE SHOOTER'S BENEFIT.

I am of that, last, generation that can (just I was only ten years old) reemeber when there where NO shot gun controls at all. No SGC. No three yearly (now five yearly) fee. Nothing.

These controls were introduced not for the shooter's benefit but for the public's benefit and, as such, therefore the public should pay. Hell! The Government makes the same logic (in reverse) about the Dartford Crossing and other estuarine crossings that "general funds" don't pay for them as ONLY THOSE WHO DIRECTLY BENEFIT FROM IT SHOULD PAY FOR IT. That those for whom it is no benefit should not pay.

Now in one respect shooters or not we are still all the general public, but, as KES says if we are to have to pay it should only be sufficient to determine we are reasonable people asking reasonably for, in one case our right and, the S1 case, for our good reason to be confirmed.

 

[EMcC]

Although a lot easier it is still a long winded rigmarole for the 1-4- 1 variation.
I have had two variations recently and although it is only one form, it is both sided.
On one side are all your personal details right down to address, height and place of birth.
As it is a variation these details are already held and, unless you have notified a change of address, one could reasonably assume that these details would always be the same.
Filling in those details took me longer than the other side which is very straightforward.
On this side was, what I'd disposed of and what I want to replace it and the reason I wanted the replacement.
One variation was for a moderator and the other for a firearm and the reason I required them was for the same reason as originally.
The good thing about our Firearms department is that they are so competant all we have to do is, make a 'phone call to arrange an appointment, pop in and fill in the relevent forms and it's all processed in minutes.
As for the appointment, the answer is usually, "just call in and ask for ++++ and I'll come out and see you"

 

[Numenius]

In our local paper this week our "Police and Crime Commissioner" (unbelievably, a barrister - so someone who would work to protect criminals for money, is in charge of our local police force, but hey, ho) has written to say how *pleased* she is that the increase has gone in as she had urged! So clearly she is against law abiding gun owners, but presumably as a barrister would have defended a criminal gun user in court if paid enough! The worlds gone mad. But that's the sort of thinking we're up against.

 

[JTO]

When you think back to the time of a Game License, which covered the cost of a gun license from what I remember, £3 was about a day's work and it was payable every year. The price of things has gone up 20-40 times since then. Even the 10/-(50p) gun license would be £10-£20 each year, nowadays.

 

[AN DU RU FOX]

its a price rise on a service that isnt fair,and that includes everyone ,weather your a noob or oldie ,and if you fall for it now we will all regret it in the long run,simply because nothing as really improved or changed, ,,,Everyone should get the same treatment !!! and they dont, its ok for those that that can ring in the morning and its all sorted by tea, but what about the poor sod that has to wait months, The system is flawed!

 

[JTO]

its a price rise on a service that isnt fair,and that includes everyone ,weather your a noob or oldie ,and if you fall for it now we will all regret it in the long run,simply because nothing as really improved or changed, ,,,Everyone should get the same treatment !!! and they dont, its ok for those that that can ring in the morning and its all sorted by tea, but what about the poor sod that has to wait months, The system is flawed!

When it comes to the value of a service, think of BASC, nothing but a rear-guard action while they keep their jobs and the rest of us get trodden on.
I applied for my renewals in mid-January for Certs that ran out Mid-February and still waiting. Don't know what the hold-up is. I've had an FAC since c1968.

 

[finnbear270]

When it comes to the value of a service, think of BASC, nothing but a rear-guard action while they keep their jobs and the rest of us get trodden on.
I applied for my renewals in mid-January for Certs that ran out Mid-February and still waiting. Don't know what the hold-up is. I've had an FAC since c1968.

Steady up now JT, You will be getting labelled as B.A.S.C. Basher bud.

 

[tFl]

Well if basc didnt work to halt the fees order and restart the analysis you would be paying £250 for an FAC/SGC.

politicians were getting very dissmissive over shooters and wanting total cost recovery. Treasury rules saved the day in that not all costs can be passed to the cert holder.

Without BASC, those in government wanting to recoup costs whilst ignoring public policy would reign supreme.

 

[finnbear270]

Well if basc didnt work to halt the fees order and restart the analysis you would be paying £250 for an FAC/SGC.

politicians were getting very dissmissive over shooters and wanting total cost recovery. Treasury rules saved the day in that not all costs can be passed to the cert holder.

Without BASC, those in government wanting to recoup costs whilst ignoring public policy would reign supreme.

So if they pushed a bit harder then?

 

[tFl]

Well u cant reason with unreasonable people.

 

[kes]

Timbrayford - I have read most of the posts on this thread and I agree almost 100% with your view.

"A bit of confusion perhaps. We are not looking at changing the wording of the Firearms Act with this current exercise with ACPO. Many of the points you raise have been lobbied for by BASC to the Home Affairs Select committee when they were looking into firearms law not that long ago for example. See here :Government Response to Firearms Control Inquiry

It was from that enquiry that several proposals that would haven restrictive, such as putting shotguns onto S1 were defeated, but as you will see that’s where the issue of fees was also raised.

However, this bigger issue is this; it does not matter what the wording of the Act reads, or what its real objective is, IF the licencing teams choose to create their own red tape, apply daft conditions where they are not needed, and tie themselves up on knots so it takes months and months to grant, renew or vary a certificate,

There is no benefit at all getting changes made if we are still left with a slow, inefficient service that can choose to apply different restrictive conditions whenever they choose.

Yes we agree, aspects of the Act need to be revisited, and we will keep pushing that of course ,after all the Act has been amended so many times it’s a bit of a hotch potch some may argue, so a full review may not hurt, provided of course we are not left in a worse state, but all that comes to nought if those who apply it don’t do so efficiently and effectively, we need to get that fixed first."


"Talking the talk" is not "walking the walk" and BASC "talk the talk" very well - the rest they do poorly.
You have been reasonable in your criticism, we do perhaps need to look again at what BASC have achieved for 140,000 times the membership fee annually.
I am not impressed and have moved. Too many "driving forwards with the new CE" for me - certainly driving forward with the old one led in rather unexpected directions. If BASC was a limited company I wouldnt buy its shares so I am not a member. Many are, and all I ask is to look at what has been achieved in Firearms Licensing, a key issue for members. The answer is not a lot but its sold very well. Spin and substance, I prefer that latter and less self-promotion

 

[Alistair Kinghorn]

its been 7 weeks and still waiting for a 1 for 1 that 20 seconds of typing must be difficult police scotland Edinburgh