CIC Roe Buck measuring ?

[waggy 1]

I’m Thinking Most people can use a tape measure! So was Just wondering why the colour of the antler is given a higher score for dark colours over light coloured antlers? Surely this is acquired purely from the location and vegetation to which the Buck lives in (conifer tree resins create dark antler colours and Oak plantations lighter colours) and so cannot Physically be measured like, Antler length, width, weight etc? Doesn’t seem fair to score it higher or lower simply because of the colour of antler ,which may not be measured exactly the same by everyone (purely there opinion)
My thoughts are that Colour should Not be an official measurement it’s only someone’s personal opinion which can vary between the people doing the measuring !
If it’s an official measurement surely it should be a physical measurement

 

[Jon P]

I assume you have shot a good buck in velvet - that is the joys of anything being judged- pearling is also taken into account. Again that is down to how impressive the scorer thinks it is- I have done a bit over the years showing horses /dogs etc- judge bias is always an issue in that field too. .

I have seen quite a few bucks shot this year. Personally It would have taken the edge of the final moment with the amount of velvet still on them at mo.

 

[waggy 1]

I assume you have shot a good buck in velvet - that is the joys of anything being judged- pearling is also taken into account. Again that is down to how impressive the scorer thinks it is- I have done a bit over the years showing horses /dogs etc- judge bias is always an issue in that field too. .

I have seen quite a few bucks shot this year. Personally It would have taken the edge of the final moment with the amount of velvet still on them at mo.

No sir, I’ve not shot one in or just cleaned of velvet that I’ve had measured, and I understand what you’re saying, I mean colour is/should not really be a measurement as it can Vary so much

 

[Mr. Gain]

Disclaimer: I don't know about measuring heads, but evaluating dark-light is easily standardised with a tone chart. Pearling may be more subjective. TBH, I'm a bit surprised that no one has yet produced an AI-based app that lets you score a head on your phone, at least as a guide to whether it is worth taking for manual measurement.

 

[VSS]

Antler colour varies massively between different regions. It shouldn't be part of any scoring system.

 

[gaza916]

I believe CIC now using a scoring card with photos to try and eliminate opinion based ‘beauty’ points which should result in a more standard score between judges.

 

[David Barker]

Antler colour varies massively between different regions. It shouldn't be part of any scoring system.

I disagree color like all the beauty points are important pearling shape span Hight etc. We could just hang the bones from the weight scale job done.

 

[Mungo]

It introduces unpredictable, entirely subjective variation into the scoring - deliberately.

Think about what would happen if the scoring was completely deterministic, based on verifiable, repeatable measurements….

 

[waggy 1]

Antler colour varies massively between different regions. It shouldn't be part of any scoring system.

Absolutely my thoughts

 

[waggy 1]

I disagree color like all the beauty points are important pearling shape span Hight etc. We could just hang the bones from the weight scale job done.

Why is colour important, it’s only gained by rubbing its Antlers on foliage/trees so it’s NOT a sign of quality or good management, it’s simply got that colour from its habitat!

 

[ChrisWill184]

Although the colour will change by a point or 2 depending on where the buck lives / scrapes its antlers on, I think that if you did want to make sure that you managed to get a maximum amount of points on it, you would leave the buck longer to colour up. I have shot plenty of bucks into May that have minimal colour. Then from June / early July that don’t have as much as when the rut is on and they are scraping / rubbing etc all over the place.

I’m pretty sure pearling is given half a point per quarter of antler (so 2 points per antler) that the pearling is there.

Yes there is an amount of judgement between what colour it is but there isn’t really that much points wise even if it was under/over scored. I think a single point absolute tops.

For the guys who are into the scoring (or maybe just me) I’m pretty interested in how it scores based on everything. Especially when you miss out on a silver or gold by less than 2 points but hey, that’s the way it works!

 

[Freeforester]

I’m Thinking Most people can use a tape measure! So was Just wondering why the colour of the antler is given a higher score for dark colours over light coloured antlers? Surely this is acquired purely from the location and vegetation to which the Buck lives in (conifer tree resins create dark antler colours and Oak plantations lighter colours) and so cannot Physically be measured like, Antler length, width, weight etc? Doesn’t seem fair to score it higher or lower simply because of the colour of antler ,which may not be measured exactly the same by everyone (purely there opinion)
My thoughts are that Colour should Not be an official measurement it’s only someone’s personal opinion which can vary between the people doing the measuring !
If it’s an official measurement surely it should be a physical measurement

The darker antlered trophies gain a higher score to demonstrate the perceived value of letting the animals breed before being taken,
rather along the same lines as to why in Sweden the stalking of the males only begins after the bulk of rutting activity has occurred (mid August).
It is indeed somewhat objective, but basically the darker the shade of brown and the more burnished the tips by contrast, tends to occur in older animals later in the season. September or October taken bucks tend to look a bit more appealing than near white and unburnished antlers.

August & September:





Mid May, by comparison:





There are only 9 possible scores, ranging from uncoloured (0( to near black with perfectly polished tips (4 points); where a colour is potentially 2,5 or 3,0 points, it is recommended to score down rather than up. Volume score increases as the season progresses too, more resin and sap making a not insignificant difference to trophy volume and weight scores.

Don’t blame the scorer, the CIC committee over many years have tried their best to nail down the scores for both fixed and aesthetic/beauty aspects of the various species.

 

[waggy 1]

I totally understand what you’re saying about Bucks being taken early in the season..But if the Foliage is of the wrong variety in his Territory He will Never develop dark antlers whilst he has a Hole in his Butt

 

[ChrisWill184]

Why is colour important, it’s only gained by rubbing its Antlers on foliage/trees so it’s NOT a sign of quality or good management, it’s simply got that colour from its

I totally understand what you’re saying about Bucks being taken early in the season..But if the Foliage is of the wrong variety in his Territory He will Never develop dark antlers whilst he has a Hole in his Butt

I would think though that the more dominant that he was then the more he would scrape, hence a higher score. I rarely see young animals with as dark antlers as the older more dominant bucks.

Saying that, I don’t know if anyone has any pictures of animals taken where there is minimal foliage? I’m sure I saw that some areas of Hungary were pretty sparse of trees but had decent medal roe.

 

[waggy 1]

I would think though that the more dominant that he was then the more he would scrape, hence a higher score. I rarely see young animals with as dark antlers as the older more dominant bucks.

Saying that, I don’t know if anyone has any pictures of animals taken where there is minimal foliage? I’m sure I saw that some areas of Hungary were pretty sparse of trees but had decent medal roe.

Deer don’t need lots trees to grow good sets of antlers , field living Roe can Grow Very good head gear , like for instance the ones in Arable Land in Hungary, Colour irrespective of antler quality is only gained from the Foliage/trees that he frequently rubs his antlers on and that will 100% make a difference to his colour,So Nothing to do with size or age

 

[Freeforester]

Tannins are found in a great deal of vegetation not only trees, and the repeated application seems to darken the antler over the course of a season. One returning guest shot a very pale trophy buck with me some years ago, before he took it the animal rubbed his antlers on three separate and very bleached fence posts along a fence line. Others go nearly black in the heather. As a percentage of the points toward eg a Gold medal scoring trophy the colour points constitute a maximum potential value of just 3% of the total.

 

[ChrisWill184]

Deer don’t need lots trees to grow good sets of antlers , field living Roe can Grow Very good head gear , like for instance the ones in Arable Land in Hungary, Colour irrespective of antler quality is only gained from the Foliage/trees that he frequently rubs his antlers on and that will 100% make a difference to his colour,So Nothing to do with size or age

I see your point. For instance, if a buck decides to rub his antlers in a cow pat and they go black in the days before it is shot then that does take some of the ‘science’ out of it.

Either way though, it is only something else and as @Freeforester says, accounts for such a small percentage. I would rather have one with colour than without so maybe could be ‘beauty points’ more than anything. To be honest, that is all that the additional points are.

 

[waggy 1]

I see your point. For instance, if a buck decides to rub his antlers in a cow pat and they go black in the days before it is shot then that does take some of the ‘science’ out of it.

Either way though, it is only something else and as @Freeforester says, accounts for such a small percentage. I would rather have one with colour than without so maybe could be ‘beauty points’ more than anything. To be honest, that is all that the additional points are.

I too prefer the darker coloured antlers, but scoring one higher than another of equal physical measurements just because his antlers are darker doesn’t to me make him better or more beautiful! But I suppose that is why some prefer men Brunettes to Blondes

 

[Sol]

Maybe this would be a good example like the recent changes to CWD needing enclosed roots, instead of "antler colour" (where darker the better) I feel like something along the lines of colour development would be a better choice in word.

The early season bucks are dull as anything with no real development regarding colour besides the initial blood that stains them a light tan colour, a buck in July Is a whole lot different In its looks regardless if there dark or light coloured, plus that classic sheen they get is quite nice too.

Again though, still an arbitrary system though I cant see it getting removed as It would in technical sense make record scores harder to achieve and probably cause some rage with CIC.

 

[David Barker]

Why is colour important, it’s only gained by rubbing its Antlers on foliage/trees so it’s NOT a sign of quality or good management, it’s simply got that colour from its habitat!

Why measure pearling as that starts of proud and sharp and by the time of rutting can be nothing but small bumps. Why is span important or height beauty point are just that. There are nice roe heads and horrible one,s. So if you don't agree do w3hat i do don't get them measured or tell the measurer to remove all point for colour. After all colour only counts for a couple of point,s