Cleaning .17hmr
- Thread starter Leeboi123
- Start date
Raker Ltd
Active Member
Hi, how many shots (roughly) have you put through it? And what ammo are you using?
It takes some doing to shoot one of these out, however if they aren't properly cleaned then they don't shoot well either.
The most common thing we see with these is ineffective cleaning in the first place - over time the barrel develops pitting under the patches in the barrel that are never truly clean. When this happens the barrel needs to be a bit dirty before it shoots well, but won't shoot many before losing accuracy.
The average hmr seems to need a clean every 50-75 shots to retain accuracy, however some are never cleaned and shoot well! I suspect this is due to variations in the tolerances at the point of manufacter, but who knows!
Give it a good clean, several times, and if you've no joy then take it to a rifle smith.
It takes some doing to shoot one of these out, however if they aren't properly cleaned then they don't shoot well either.
The most common thing we see with these is ineffective cleaning in the first place - over time the barrel develops pitting under the patches in the barrel that are never truly clean. When this happens the barrel needs to be a bit dirty before it shoots well, but won't shoot many before losing accuracy.
The average hmr seems to need a clean every 50-75 shots to retain accuracy, however some are never cleaned and shoot well! I suspect this is due to variations in the tolerances at the point of manufacter, but who knows!
Give it a good clean, several times, and if you've no joy then take it to a rifle smith.
bewsher500
Well-Known Member
How are you cleaning it?
I purchased a Sako Quad that had was allegedly only 6-12 months old and not fired many shots. To start with accuracy was 'ok' around 1" at 100m, but over the course of the next few hundred rounds over 6-months, cleaning after every outing, the accuracy widened to 3-4 inches. The local gun shot checked and the barrel was absolutely shot out, hardly any rifling left at all. Thankfully with the quad, the barrel was at least easily replaced.
bewsher500
Well-Known Member
One thing that some people expect to see from rimfire barrels are deep cut centrefire style rifling
they are not, they use micro rifling and the rifling is both very shallow and often radiused using 5r design which makes them look even less significant
I am really struggling how a copper gilded 17gr pill pushing 2500fps at the absolute max with 3-5gr of lil'gun (or similar) behind it has the capacity to wear out a steel barrel
the pressure is around 26-27k psi less than half of a centrefire
it has neither the bearing surface and velocity to create friction/heat or powder charge to do this unless your are genuinely shooting very long strings and have a round count up in the 10's of thousands
this is a Sako Quad barrel and it is very hard to photograph the lands they are so light
they are not, they use micro rifling and the rifling is both very shallow and often radiused using 5r design which makes them look even less significant
I am really struggling how a copper gilded 17gr pill pushing 2500fps at the absolute max with 3-5gr of lil'gun (or similar) behind it has the capacity to wear out a steel barrel
the pressure is around 26-27k psi less than half of a centrefire
it has neither the bearing surface and velocity to create friction/heat or powder charge to do this unless your are genuinely shooting very long strings and have a round count up in the 10's of thousands
this is a Sako Quad barrel and it is very hard to photograph the lands they are so light
You might be struggling to understand bewsher, but that was my experience. This was the advert:
On arriving at the shop I asked how old the gun was and was advised not more than 6-months and had not fired more than a few hundred rounds.
After zeroing, it proved deadly at reducing the local farmers rabbit population, going through several hundred rounds in around 3-months. I then started missing shots that I would never usually miss. So, I fired a number of test groups to see what was going on and found the group size had opened up to 3-4 inches.
Taking to my local gun shop, and re-counting the story, they were the ones who commented that there was nothing left of the rifling. Telling them I had been told the gun was only ~1-year old and had only fired a few hundred rounds, they kindly checked the serial number with GMK. GMK confirmed it was sold to a dealer in North Cotswolds 9-years earlier. So, in that time, the rifle had undoubtedly had thousands and thousands and rounds through and whether you can see that could have any impact on the rifling or not, a simple barrel change and not only was the rifling then apparent, but the group size had gone down to just 3/4 inch. If it hadn't taken over 6-months to reach the conclusion, I would have had more than a few words to say to the unscrupulous dealer I purchased it from in South Wales.
On arriving at the shop I asked how old the gun was and was advised not more than 6-months and had not fired more than a few hundred rounds.
After zeroing, it proved deadly at reducing the local farmers rabbit population, going through several hundred rounds in around 3-months. I then started missing shots that I would never usually miss. So, I fired a number of test groups to see what was going on and found the group size had opened up to 3-4 inches.
Taking to my local gun shop, and re-counting the story, they were the ones who commented that there was nothing left of the rifling. Telling them I had been told the gun was only ~1-year old and had only fired a few hundred rounds, they kindly checked the serial number with GMK. GMK confirmed it was sold to a dealer in North Cotswolds 9-years earlier. So, in that time, the rifle had undoubtedly had thousands and thousands and rounds through and whether you can see that could have any impact on the rifling or not, a simple barrel change and not only was the rifling then apparent, but the group size had gone down to just 3/4 inch. If it hadn't taken over 6-months to reach the conclusion, I would have had more than a few words to say to the unscrupulous dealer I purchased it from in South Wales.
bewsher500
Well-Known Member
not denying that's what they told you or the results of changing the barrel
I am just questioning the physical properties of the materials involved and the conclusions drawn
9 years is a long time but a rifle that has had 9 years use in the region of thousands of rounds never looks like a 6 month old rifle.....unless it is a range queen....and that is also unlikely
There a million reasons why it didn't shoot and group size deteriorated but I am fairly confident that worn out rifling due to normal shooting use was unlikely to be it
if as you conclude it had tens of thousands of rounds through it to wear the barrel out...it doesn't follow that you would notice a marked deterioration in accuracy after only a further few hundred.
bewsher, 17 HMR bullets are not copper gilded, they are true jacketed bullets, polymer tipped in the case of the 17grn V-max and JHP for the 20grainers.They might be remfire rounds but the the style of ignition is the only resembalnce to the usual lead bulleted 22lr. 10K+ of these is going to have some effect on the rifling especially when you say its micro-groove rifling which i must say i have never heard of before in a 17HMR barrelMy HMR was treated to the same cleaning regime as my bigger centrefire rifles, carbon first, copper residue second.Ian.
bewsher500
Well-Known Member
You misunderstand the description
Pretty much ALL jacketed bullets are housed in "Gilding metal" jackets (usually a harder than copper alloy)
BULLET JACKETS
https://www.hornady.com/assets/files/catalog/Hornady-2013-Product-Catalog.pdf
Hard-hitting and deep-penetrating, the GMX® (Gilding Metal eXpanding) bullet combines monolithic construction with pioneeringballistic design to meet the need for a premium, non-traditional bullet. Fully California compatible and approved for use in otherareas requiring the use of non-traditional bullets, GMX® is ideal for any sized game, from antelope to moose.The mono-metal design of the GMX® bullet is crafted from gilding metal — the same material Hornady® uses for the jacket materialin our conventional bullets.
as for micro groove style rifling, its been around since the 1950's, its a Marlin patented name but the idea is the same in pretty much all rimfire barrels, compared to most CF (and even some RF) rifling cut between .0785"-.177" wide and .002-004" deep they are much lighter and often bevelled rather than square cut
Marlin Microgroove Barrels
In 1953 Marlin applied for a patent on Microgroove rifling (US Patent #3,100,358 was granted on Aug. 13, 1953) In this patent, Microgroove rifling was described as having 5 grooves for every 1/10th of an inch bore diameter, and that the driving side of each land would be "tangentially disposed" (i.e. beveled, presumably to prevent the accumulation of fouling).
Marlin introduced Microgroove rifling in their .22 rimfire barrels, with 16 grooves that were .014" wide, and nominally .001-0015" deep
In their 1954 catalog, they outlined numerous advantages that this new form of rifling had, including better accuracy, ease of cleaning, elimination of gas leakage, higher velocities and lower chamber pressures. They also mentioned "...a bore of greater than standard size..." in their discussion of how Microgroove rifling did not engrave (distort) a bullet jacket as deeply as conventional rifling.
Did not misunderstand bewsher, your your description was wrong mate, yes jacketed bullets are made out of a copper alloy gilding metal, what they are not is copper gilded which means applying copper to another surface mechanically.I am aware of Marlins use of micro groove rifling but not aware of whether CZ, Sako, Ansuchtz or anyother maker of 17HMRs uses this process.Ian.You misunderstand the descriptionPretty much ALL jacketed bullets are housed in "Gilding metal" jackets (usually a harder than copper alloy)BULLET JACKETSAll Sierra Match jackets are made from special gilding metal copper alloy composed of 95% copper and 5% zinc. https://www.hornady.com/assets/files/catalog/Hornady-2013-Product-Catalog.pdfHard-hitting and deep-penetrating, the GMX® (Gilding Metal eXpanding) bullet combines monolithic construction with pioneeringballistic design to meet the need for a premium, non-traditional bullet. Fully California compatible and approved for use in otherareas requiring the use of non-traditional bullets, GMX® is ideal for any sized game, from antelope to moose.The mono-metal design of the GMX® bullet is crafted from gilding metal — the same material Hornady® uses for the jacket materialin our conventional bullets.as for micro groove style rifling, its been around since the 1950's, its a Marlin patented name but the idea is the same in pretty much all rimfire barrels, compared to most CF (and even some RF) rifling cut between .0785"-.177" wide and .002-004" deep they are much lighter and often bevelled rather than square cutMarlin Microgroove BarrelsIn 1953 Marlin applied for a patent on Microgroove rifling (US Patent #3,100,358 was granted on Aug. 13, 1953) In this patent, Microgroove rifling was described as having 5 grooves for every 1/10th of an inch bore diameter, and that the driving side of each land would be "tangentially disposed" (i.e. beveled, presumably to prevent the accumulation of fouling). Marlin introduced Microgroove rifling in their .22 rimfire barrels, with 16 grooves that were .014" wide, and nominally .001-0015" deepIn their 1954 catalog, they outlined numerous advantages that this new form of rifling had, including better accuracy, ease of cleaning, elimination of gas leakage, higher velocities and lower chamber pressures. They also mentioned "...a bore of greater than standard size..." in their discussion of how Microgroove rifling did not engrave (distort) a bullet jacket as deeply as conventional rifling.
bewsher500
Well-Known Member
and I thought I was the pedant..
But if we are going down that route ...it is not a "process" as many barrels are rifled with one pass such as the method Marlin use/used and the 5:1/10th groove to bore diameter is not distinct to them either, nor is the depth or radiused lands
but we digress...
I personally do not believe a high quality, cold hammer forged barrel can be worn out just from firing gilding metal jacketed bullets (or indeed copper gilded ones for that matter!) down it without some other scenario presenting a problem.
Also cleaning a barrel that is shot out won't usually solve inaccuracies ...it will make them worse
I am a sucker for correct terminology bewsher, if that comes across as being pedantic then so be it but thats just the way i am. Everything will wear eventually regardless of whether similar or dissimilar materials. We dont know the total round count but if the rifle has digested a couple of thousand rounds a year over a ten year period then some wear will be present, however like you said there are other factors which could cause the OPs problem. Ian.
I agree with you, Whitebeard. All you have to do is look at other things in this natural world of ours. Leather on steps over time wears the steps down. Water dripping in a certain place will wear down any type of stone eventually. Softer metals against harder ones will of course wear the harder metal down faster than the above examples.
In the case of an HMR, you may think it'll wear down slower than a centre fire barrel and you may be right. But remember it's no slouch by any means speed-wise and the friction has less surface to wear on due to the small calibre, all relevant factors I'd suggest.
On the other point of this thread, I've got a Sako Quad in HMR myself. Bought new, thankfully. It is a very accurate thing, but does need cleaned every 50 or so rounds or the POI does go walkabout.
In the case of an HMR, you may think it'll wear down slower than a centre fire barrel and you may be right. But remember it's no slouch by any means speed-wise and the friction has less surface to wear on due to the small calibre, all relevant factors I'd suggest.
On the other point of this thread, I've got a Sako Quad in HMR myself. Bought new, thankfully. It is a very accurate thing, but does need cleaned every 50 or so rounds or the POI does go walkabout.
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