Colour and Tracking

[countrryboy]

I dunno about the choc labs, i've actually seen some very good ones, will always remember my first headkeepers choc 'Glen' was a crackng dog and very clever and pretty quick to pick up on things, I've also seen quite a few other really good to decent choc labs as well as some truely s**t ones. In fact probably seen more half decent ones really
I think in the lab scene the Fox red are now so popular that anyone with a bitch will be breeding them no matter how sh*t the bitch is, so u might find the genetic standard of the fox reds going down hill as too many people try to cash in.

When u have a different breed/colour off dog it is very noticable and remember it, very few folk remember a dog doing well but as soon as it does 1 thing wrong that is exactly wot that dog will be remembered for no matter how well it has behaved before and after. There is some truely sh*t black labs up and down the country but no one notices to the same extent

As for the show scene and KC in this country have completely ruined this countries working breeds, i imagine the sweedish working dog shows will be similar to the hunt/hound puppy shows where u want to breed off good sized/looking dogs but they still have to perform in the field.
Althou in fairness i also think the Field trailling community are making a good job off ruining wot was left of decent working dog stock/lines, completely changed the look off the 3 most popular breeds in the last 30 odd year, and not for the better

I don't know much about the genetics of the hound breeds or wot traits/colours are dominant or reccessive, but if u had a paticulary good working hound with a dominant colour gene(phenotype? forgot the proper terminology) and it was put to stud a lot (which often happens in uk, not a good thing in a small population) it could quite easily mean that 1 colour may be better than an other in the very small uk gene pool.

 

[Shabz]

I've seen a few decent chocolate labs too. It's a numbers thing though. There aren't many so proportionately very few good ones. It's the reason that Scotland are crap at football! There just isn't enough of them to get a good number of good ones together!

i would definitely agree that the trialling world has a lot to answer for. Labs the size of springers and springers the size of cockers and all bred for speed before ability. What's the world coming too!

 

[stone]

I agree so why such a push for the tiger stripe or the Dark head. I am not sure Richard and your self might know this but am i right in thinking the Chocolate lab is frown upon as a bad worker. Most i have spoken to believe this to be the case.

The problem here is to much talk about things that people know little about
chocolate labs hav always remained a show strain where intelligence and working ability is not needed
those that hav actually owned and used a working chocolate lab speak differently about their ability
infact most choc labs would make a great dog for finding deer
they have plenty of drive and good noses to boot
it is only the bird shooting world that turns it's back on the choc lab , but that is slowly changing

i think Shabz has summed that side up in a nut shell with his comments about it

But a dog is like a car or a pair of trousers to a point

you purchase for ability and size that does the job you want it to do in accordance to wot the industry standard is set at
so you know that wot you purchase is upto the job to start with.... Variations on this can go either way in how they perform
colour and colouration in my mind is personnel preference unless you are after the perfect look

if we are looking at showing then that dog will hav to be up to a chosen standard regardless
so it has a chance to proove itself within it's breed

​

 

[stone]

Just to add fuel to the wosname I now have a 'chocolate' Cocker BEST DOG I have ever had, easy to train and very willing. I used to go for springers but no more thanks.

No fuel added ..... but as I said in my first post on this thread

If you had looked at or owned a cocker 25 years ago I wonder if you would of said the same .... Goes to show wot a bit of the right breeding can do for the breed and now the wrong breeding is doing for the same breed
​

 

[6pointer]

If you are looking at showing and want to be successful as most do infact there drive can be described as obsessive at times. Then your do not only needs to meet a standard it needs to be the standard and if some judge that normally judges Dachshunds wants a BMH TO HAVE SMALL LEGS AND A DARKER TAN TO HIS COAT THEN THATS WHAT THE SHOWERS WILL BREED FOR HIM ! Dose colour matter in my opinion it will do. You think you have a small gene pool in some breeds try in the show ring it is down to one or two successful dogs.
How long till your dog looks like this.It only takes one judge to do harm and at this moment the show world is in IMPORT mode. That means any hound judge can judge BMH This is where the harm is really done.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?um=1...bnh=187&tbnw=227&start=56&ndsp=15&tx=64&ty=98

 

[ajr]

No fuel added ..... but as I said in my first post on this thread

If you had looked at or owned a cocker 25 years ago I wonder if you would of said the same .... Goes to show wot a bit of the right breeding can do for the breed and now the wrong breeding is doing for the same breed
​

I have owned and trained cockers for many years, cockers will throw ANY colour, the sire and dam can be of the same colour and will throw a different colour pups, the secret is in the breeding and have no problem at all line breeding closely when you have quality stock.

 

[stone]

Fashion is and always will be a determining factor in the dog world

As a lot of money can be made from it
one so called judge who knows a bit about about the breed sets a new breeding line in motion by their own ill formed opinions
Then bingo
pups galore
but we can't just blame the judge on that ... as breeders should do their bit also
​

 

[ajr]

Fashion is and always will be a determining factor in the dog world

As a lot of money can be made from it
one so called judge who knows a bit about about the breed sets a new breeding line in motion by their own ill formed opinions
Then bingo
pups galore
but we can't just blame the judge on that ... as breeders should do their bit also
​

hi Stone,
My breeding policy in cockers has given me the chance to me to make up one FTCH and bred the most famous cocker of them "ALL" FTCH Danderw Druid. I have always bred fire with fire and this policy brings out stallions of the bred.

 

[malantone]

My first Lab was a yellow from a show breeder, I showed her and trained her to the gun, when she was about 3yrs+ she had a scar on her eyebrow (from running into a fence) and I took her to the Leeds championship show, she also had a pink stain down one side from iron ore rocks (there is quite a lot around here) , I took her in the ring and answered the Judges questions re the scar and pink stain, he remarked `Oh she works as well?` he then put her in second place, not bad in a champ show for a scarred and stained working show dog.

 

[Paul 600]

If you are looking at showing and want to be successful as most do infact there drive can be described as obsessive at times. Then your do not only needs to meet a standard it needs to be the standard and if some judge that normally judges Dachshunds wants a BMH TO HAVE SMALL LEGS AND A DARKER TAN TO HIS COAT THEN THATS WHAT THE SHOWERS WILL BREED FOR HIM ! Dose colour matter in my opinion it will do. You think you have a small gene pool in some breeds try in the show ring it is down to one or two successful dogs.
How long till your dog looks like this.It only takes one judge to do harm and at this moment the show world is in IMPORT mode. That means any hound judge can judge BMH This is where the harm is really done.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?um=1...bnh=187&tbnw=227&start=56&ndsp=15&tx=64&ty=98

​The KC will be the undoing of many a breed!

 

[Jagare]

I just looked up the colours that Hanovarians come in, red, black brindle (tiger stripe) and brown. Bavrians come in fawn, red, red brindle and black brindle. So whats the colour of these breeds got to do with showing?

 

[munstisue]

I just looked up the colours that Hanovarians come in, red, black brindle (tiger stripe) and brown. Bavrians come in fawn, red, red brindle and black brindle. So whats the colour of these breeds got to do with showing?

How 'flashy' they look in the ring. As 6pointer has said a BMH with a predominantly black head will potentially be considered more 'flashy' than one with little or no black on the head. Fawn and black brindle are not accepted colours in the UK...it is red with/without black mask (as per KC website). Colour probably does not have any correlation with how well they work in this country as yet.

 

[Jagare]

But who in their right mind would buy a Hanovarian from a breeder in the UK at the moment. Who cares what the KC have to say about the Hanovarian as there are so few in the UK and i bet they don't a single judge qualifed to judge them in the UK or the Bavarian for that matter. Looks like the UK are well on there way to phucking up a couple of noble breeds.

 

[Wolverine]

But who in their right mind would buy a Hanovarian from a breeder in the UK at the moment. Who cares what the KC have to say about the Hanovarian as there are so few in the UK and i bet they don't a single judge qualifed to judge them in the UK or the Bavarian for that matter. Looks like the UK are well on there way to phucking up a couple of noble breeds.

Spot on Jagare.
With the help of some,HS is going that way too.BGS I feel it's too late.Crap being bred with crap.
How many in the UK would know what "proper" dogs look like.Answer=0

 

[cookingfat]

Spot on Jagare.
With the help of some,HS is going that way too.BGS I feel it's too late.Crap being bred with crap.
How many in the UK would know what "proper" dogs look like.Answer=0

It doesn't matter what it looks like as long as it is trained to a high standard so it can end suffering and retrieve deer that others can not..!

 

[Wolverine]

It doesn't matter what it looks like as long as it is trained to a high standard so it can end suffering and retrieve deer that others can not..!

Spoken like a true keeper.
No wonder dog breeding in the UK is in the mess it is when you make comments like that.
Work matters so does type and conformation.
​Then again what do some know.....

Some crap gets spouted on here.So many people listen Tony-what will they think of that comment.
Breed any old how cos you say it works.
So therefore with your reasoning Tony,there is no need to have a breed standard and dogs which can work should be the ones bred from.
Thats why sprockers and gwpxlabs are so popular I suppose.
Accidental matings mostly from gamekeeperswho are never wrong......

 

[cookingfat]

of course breeding matters and I never said it didn't, just saying does it matter that much what it looks like if it can do the job to a high standard,
I have never had a accidental mating and all my dogs are KC reg,
don't tar all us keepers with that brush please.

 

[Wolverine]

of course breeding matters and I never said it didn't, just saying does it matter that much what it looks like if it can do the job to a high standard,
I have never had a accidental mating and all my dogs are KC reg,
don't tar all us keepers with that brush please.

So it does matter what the dog looks like then Tony.A dog that works well but is nothing like breed standard should not be bred......how can a breed change so much within a short time period Tony?
Oh it's a brilliant worker......cross it with another brilliant worker......brilliant in who's eyes?
Yes-it does matter what it looks like-a dog that's the best working dog in the UK but is half the size it should be should not be bred.Look at labs now-nothing like a lab should look like.
I never mentioned KC reg,I'm not tarring anyone with any brush either.
Whats your problem tonight?
Had a bad day?

 

[6pointer]

It dose matter i bought Ria because the breed can find deer so can labs so can many breeds so why go for A BMH because i liked what they look like.
PS I also wanted one with a dark head just that wee bit smarter.

 

[cookingfat]

I SAID BREEDING DOES MATTER, but how can what colour or what it looks like matter if it is up to the mark?
if its a brilliant worker and its KC registered and has no health issues than why can it not be breed?
yes you where saying that mostly keepers do the accidental breeding, well this one doesn't and I don't know any that do.
oh, and yes I am wrong sometimes like we all are!