Can I ask what the parameters are?Attached pic is from a sika stag killed last week. .308 130g TTSX @3000fps. Bullet went into the low neck collapsing it on the spot, it was sat under the skin mid rib cage. I’ll be weighing it when I see a certain vet friend of mine. My guess is 125g. I killed 4 red stags and 1 sika stag and none went far, contributing to my general satisfaction with TTSX both in 6.5 and .308-provided certain parameters are met.View attachment 227700
Comparing Terminal Performance of Non-lead/Copper Bullets on UK Deer
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Top is 150gn SST bottom is 165gn GMX both at 100yds into ballistic soap (Thicker than gel) What I noticed in this demo was the amount of lead fragment in the SST wound cavity. I still use lead but I also use copper, when using the copper though I aim more for the neural plexus.
Over 3000fps MV. The 308 is right on that with a 130g pill, my 6.5 is a lot quicker (admittedly through a ‘fast’ 26” heavy barrel) at 3350fps. ‘They’ suggest that an impact speed of over 2400fps is essential.
All I know is so far so good. Taken beasts to 24st, stags to 250yd, and no disasters. Worst case was a fractured petal that punctured a rumen on a hind on an easy 70yd heart shot. I won’t claim to be an expert, but they’re doing the business for me.
All well and good until you find 'lead free factory ammo only' put as a condition in a contract/lease/agreement.
Even estates up North are requiring it.
Aye
In factory it can be poor, no doubt. Hoping for better to be brought to the market.
How much a box?
How many boxes did the RFD have available?
Do you think we will be getting more USA made, new production ammo anytime soon?
I cannot answer any of those questions as the rifle and ammo were someone elses, I only worked the chrono. Perhaps @Raytrade UK could comment
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
One Roe shot this morning.
Shot at 235m (ranged w/ RF) with my .308 using 130 grain TTSXs (MV - 3050 FPS)
These would be doing about 2390 FPS on impact (estimated on QL)
Dropped the deer on the spot, damage to the heart was extensive as shown below.
Entry was a 5P sized hole, exit was about 2” diameter, I didn’t manage to get a picture as it was already in the game dealers chiller by the time I thought to get one.
Shot at 235m (ranged w/ RF) with my .308 using 130 grain TTSXs (MV - 3050 FPS)
These would be doing about 2390 FPS on impact (estimated on QL)
Dropped the deer on the spot, damage to the heart was extensive as shown below.
Entry was a 5P sized hole, exit was about 2” diameter, I didn’t manage to get a picture as it was already in the game dealers chiller by the time I thought to get one.
@brave echo niner did the bullet strike bone on entry?
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
Didn’t appear to, from what I saw it went between the ribs
Rutland lad
Well-Known Member
I’ve shot Barnes TSX 180 grain in my .300 Winmag for the last 8 years. Lots of results, all positive unless I made a poor shot.
Now got a 6.5 x 55 barrel and didn't get on well with Barnes at all, but a switch to Fox Classic Hunter 123 grain has resulted in a half MOA repeatable group on the range, and now well into double figures on deer downed.
My experience is the same - these bullets perform well and expand well. I have posted photos of the wounds and results earlier so I won’t bore you all with them again. My only caveat is a lot of people seem to want to push these on at massive speeds and this is not something I’ve chased.
I’ve gone for accuracy over speed. .300 Winmag is around 2,700 fps and 6.5 is around 2,850. Not excessive in my book, but even at these speeds the ranges I shoot at are only up to 250m - I might get a 300m in Scotland and I’m aware of my drops at those ranges. The bullets would still be effective at those ranges at the speed they have.
Now got a 6.5 x 55 barrel and didn't get on well with Barnes at all, but a switch to Fox Classic Hunter 123 grain has resulted in a half MOA repeatable group on the range, and now well into double figures on deer downed.
My experience is the same - these bullets perform well and expand well. I have posted photos of the wounds and results earlier so I won’t bore you all with them again. My only caveat is a lot of people seem to want to push these on at massive speeds and this is not something I’ve chased.
I’ve gone for accuracy over speed. .300 Winmag is around 2,700 fps and 6.5 is around 2,850. Not excessive in my book, but even at these speeds the ranges I shoot at are only up to 250m - I might get a 300m in Scotland and I’m aware of my drops at those ranges. The bullets would still be effective at those ranges at the speed they have.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
There have now been many thousands of deer shot with non lead bullets. They work.
I shot 3 red hinds earlier this week. One was a behind shoulder shot. She ran fifty yards, wobbled and staggered but I shot her again and she went down. I didn’t need the second shot but she was close to the woods. The other two went straight down. I would not expect anything different with lead bullets. Some deer ran, others dropped on the spot.
Like it or not, the consumer wants lead free, dealers want lead free, and many landowners now stipulate lead free. And lead free has been used in many jurisdictions for many years.
Any rifle / bullet combination has its limits. I have perfectly adequate rifles and lead free ammo combinations in 243, 7x57 and 7x65r for any deer stalking that I want to do, and they work up to any sort of range that I would shoot a deer which is about 250m as a maximum. And for 95% of situations I am sure most other UK stalkers can achieve the same.
I shot 3 red hinds earlier this week. One was a behind shoulder shot. She ran fifty yards, wobbled and staggered but I shot her again and she went down. I didn’t need the second shot but she was close to the woods. The other two went straight down. I would not expect anything different with lead bullets. Some deer ran, others dropped on the spot.
Like it or not, the consumer wants lead free, dealers want lead free, and many landowners now stipulate lead free. And lead free has been used in many jurisdictions for many years.
Any rifle / bullet combination has its limits. I have perfectly adequate rifles and lead free ammo combinations in 243, 7x57 and 7x65r for any deer stalking that I want to do, and they work up to any sort of range that I would shoot a deer which is about 250m as a maximum. And for 95% of situations I am sure most other UK stalkers can achieve the same.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
So a wider cavity that is twice as long as the lead bullet. And substantially better penetration. And a much cleaner result with no fragmentation.
If you compare those two, one is about the width of entry side shoulder, the other is the complete width of any UK deer.
What i like about monolithics is certain through and through performance. I have had issues with 243 and lead bullets blowing up in the shoulder of red deer.
The important part of that statement being, ‘basically the manufacturers gave them a load of ammo’plenty of testing done here. This was the first lot, there is more but you can use your search engines to find it.
basically the manufactures gave them a load of ammo in different Calibers and said, go shoot animals and check for yourselves.
On Test: best copper bullets for deer
Firearms expert Andrew Venables has a guilty secret (innocent secret?). He prefers copper bullets to lead bullets. In this film, he puts copper bullets through their paces on a range, showing how they win on both accuracy and fillability. Thanks to Tim Pilbeam for letting us use his range. Have...www.fieldsportschannel.tv
I stopped buying gun magazines a long time ago, you never see a bad review, because if the reviewers were honest they’d get less free stuff
I know there are other threads about the performance of copper generally, and I don't have pictures to add, so apologies for a slight hijack, but to add my two pennorth...
I've been using Nosler etips in my 6.5x55 since October 2020 and since then have shot just over 90 deer, 5 of the 6 UK species with only Sika not represented. Majority have been roe and muntjac in woodland, with shots under 100 yards. 9 red deer and 10 or so fallow, with one red calf circa 280 metres (had already shot the hind so wanted to take the calf hence the longer (for me!) shot). I've not had one runner in that time, most just drop. I do tend to shoot on the shoulder though.
Make of that what you will but for me 'they just work'.
I've been using Nosler etips in my 6.5x55 since October 2020 and since then have shot just over 90 deer, 5 of the 6 UK species with only Sika not represented. Majority have been roe and muntjac in woodland, with shots under 100 yards. 9 red deer and 10 or so fallow, with one red calf circa 280 metres (had already shot the hind so wanted to take the calf hence the longer (for me!) shot). I've not had one runner in that time, most just drop. I do tend to shoot on the shoulder though.
Make of that what you will but for me 'they just work'.
Did you get a response @brave echo niner ?
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
Yes, although it wasn’t awfully helpful!
They will provide the data but in a redacted form. Due to some rules or regulations will not disclose the manufacturer/model of bullet used, so I would have a massive number of random stats with no context.
Would still be interesting if it showed distances run, placement etc. at the end of the day copper is copper to a certain extent.
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
I would share it if I still had it, unfortunately they only provided access for 30 days, which has long elapsed.
They did however reply within a week or so when I requested it, if you were interested it's a very quick email to send and they would provide you with the same data.
Ben
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