Controversial training idea...

[bartzkingx]

Morning all,

I am a big believer in the traditional continental philosophy of training Schweißhunde and I currently train my BMH the German way (with Färtenschuh, without blood) as this is where I am living. However, I wanted to get peoples thoughts on training deer dogs, but more specifically the tracking element, using a 'clicker'.

The reason I have brought this up is because I was reading Schutzhund training theory out of interest and they heavily rely on the clicker for most of their disciplines, including article showing.

Out of curiosity I wondered whether the clicker could be transfered to tracking and Verweisen (blood/hair/bone/flesh showing)?Tom

 

[Bavarianbrit]

I am also based in Germany and my pal is the BodoBande tracking equipment store owner and I have done a lot of shows with him and I have never heard of this clicker before.
Discuss.
Martin

 

[bartzkingx]

"Clicker training" is an animal training method based on behavioral psychology that relies on marking desirable behavior and rewarding it.Desirable behavior is usually marked by using a "clicker," a mechanical device that makes a short, distinct "click" sound which tells the animal exactly when they're doing the right thing. This clear form of communication, combined with positive reinforcement, is an effective, safe, and humane way to teach any animal any behavior that it is physically and mentally capable of doing.

The above excerpt is taken from clickertraining.com. Basically what I can tell from this website and Schutzhunde training sites is that as soon as the dog does the desired behaviour you click and then give a treat. This is why I thought it was interesting as I wondered whether this could be transfered to tracking, i.e. when the dog is on the trail you "click", when it finds an article and "shows you", you "click". Any thoughts?Being in Germany as well you will know that this most definately isn't a technique used or even considered but it would be interesting to see if anyone thinks it could work. Do you have a BGS or HS, or a Drahthaar etc?

 

[jamross65]

f I am training a young dog or puppy, the animal is told verbally how good she is being. 'Good dog' said in an enthusiastic tone over and over whilst going over the top with rubbing and playing with her usually gets the message through pretty quickly. once that has been installed a gentle verbal reassurance is generally all Thatbis required to keep them on track. I can see what you are saying but don't know how the clicking method would be any better....

 

[Wolverine]

Tone tone and tone.
Coupled with the fact schweisshund are born to track=no need for clicker.
Saying that the clicker may get attention when teaching verweisen,hmmm interesting!

 

[User00003]

f I am training a young dog or puppy, the animal is told verbally how good she is being. 'Good dog' said in an enthusiastic tone over and over whilst going over the top with rubbing and playing with her usually gets the message through pretty quickly. once that has been installed a gentle verbal reassurance is generally all Thatbis required to keep them on track. I can see what you are saying but don't know how the clicking method would be any better....

+1 I am sick to death of 'gadgets' and god knows what, whatever happened to a decent rifle, a knife, and your dog by your side...all other (apart from clothes) junk left at Bushwear.

 

[sikadog]

There are a lot of companys making a lot of money selling things that they insist you need to own belive my you dont, how did anyone manage to train a dog before someone invented the clicker I'm with PKL on this one.

 

[jamross65]

Is the clicker method a new one or has it been traditionally used for some time now? I have never heard of it either...

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Hi My pal has a HS which is getting a bit old now.
I am waiting till I retire next year to get one as I am on the road working each week & the missus will not look after a dog while I am away, plus it iwould not be fair on the dog as I can only stalk my patch every Fri & Sat, it would be wasted.
Weidmansheill
Martin

 

[widu]

Hello bartzkingx. For schutzhund training and dog agility the clicker does produce good results . Yet as said by jamross soft enthusiastic encouragement is the correct way in a tracking environment. When the animal you are is searching for is found dead noise won't matter but in the case of a lightly wounded or still very conscious animal that is most likely still pumped up with adrenalin any metallic noises are not advisable . They will only serve to move the animal on unnecessarily .Thus causing more suffering and more work . REGARDS WIDU.





TO STRIVE, TO SEEK, TO FIND, AND NEVER TO YIELD.

 

[bartzkingx]

It has been interesting seeing the different views. As far as I'm aware the clicker has been around since the late 80s and used predominantly for show and agility. I was mainly interested in the 'article showing' bit from Schutzhund training due to the simplicity of clicking the correct 'showing' and then developing that. The methodology behind it is you click the exact right behaviour thus the dog knows exactly what you wanted from him with minimal confusion.

What is people's view on the punishment versus positive reinforcement during training? Not just necessarily the tracking part but obedience as well.

Bavarianbrit, (I probably know the answer given your username...), where abouts in Germany are you? I live in North Rhine Westphalia but my Revier is in Niedersachsen.

 

[Cut+Squirt]

Is the clicker method a new one or has it been traditionally used for some time now? I have never heard of it either...

Its big in America. . . . how much use it would be for us in the world of deer stalking im not so sure.

 

[Shabz]

My pointer was quite hard to train. Any scolding and she wouldn't come near me. I use meditation. She sits and stays on the spot where she has done wrong for long enough to think about it while I praise the other dog (always does what shes told) or just ignore her if she's on her own. She literally sits on the naughty step!

I've never really understood the whole clicker thing. It's just substituted titbits and i firmly believe that praise is enough.

You never leave your "good girl" at home.

 

[barongcw]

"Clicker training" is an animal training method based on behavioral psychology that relies on marking desirable behavior and rewarding it.Desirable behavior is usually marked by using a "clicker," a mechanical device that makes a short, distinct "click" sound which tells the animal exactly when they're doing the right thing. This clear form of communication, combined with positive reinforcement, is an effective, safe, and humane way to teach any animal any behavior that it is physically and mentally capable of doing.

The above excerpt is taken from clickertraining.com. Basically what I can tell from this website and Schutzhunde training sites is that as soon as the dog does the desired behaviour you click and then give a treat. This is why I thought it was interesting as I wondered whether this could be transfered to tracking, i.e. when the dog is on the trail you "click", when it finds an article and "shows you", you "click". Any thoughts?Being in Germany as well you will know that this most definately isn't a technique used or even considered but it would be interesting to see if anyone thinks it could work. Do you have a BGS or HS, or a Drahthaar etc?

My HS's would certainly approve of clicking AND then being given a treat. Am not certain it would do there figures any good.
But to be more serious, I agree with Jamross that voice works just as well; probably even better as you can modulate it.

Nevertheless an interesting idea. Will have to read up on clicking to see why it is used instead of a voice. Do you know?

See on the website that it is used to "potty train dogs". Now that is useful as our county council have just put up signs along the footpaths through the woods that we have to clean up after our dogs!

 

[bartzkingx]

Hi Baron, I can only assume that the click replaces voice as it is instant and can capture the behavior far quicker, but that is only my thoughts. I watched a few clips on YouTube and people use it to give the dog problem solving exercises; once the dog has mastered the step towards the desired behavior you then only click when he does a little more. Then once he's done that then you only click once he's taken another little step forward, and so on.

You mentioned modulating your voice, and I agree with you but I want to spark more ideas, maybe by having a modulated voice that the dog could sense tension/stress/emotion in doesn't actually aid the dog in figuring out exactly what you want from him?

 

[barongcw]

Hi Baron, I can only assume that the click replaces voice as it is instant and can capture the behavior far quicker, but that is only my thoughts. I watched a few clips on YouTube and people use it to give the dog problem solving exercises; once the dog has mastered the step towards the desired behavior you then only click when he does a little more. Then once he's done that then you only click once he's taken another little step forward, and so on.

You mentioned modulating your voice, and I agree with you but I want to spark more ideas, maybe by having a modulated voice that the dog could sense tension/stress/emotion in doesn't actually aid the dog in figuring out exactly what you want from him?

Hmm. Unless I walk with the clicker in hand and my hands are quite full stalking, I would argue my voice is quicker. It is the tone of the voice which I think transfers my views to the dog but you are certainly right the your dog will sense your tension.

But I am tempted to get one as I know a few Revieroberjaeger who will choke on their pipes if they see me appearing with such a gadget. Too good to miss.

But joking apart I think it was Colonel Corbett who described a Maharadja moving tigers by clickers in the wood instead of the usual 500 beaters so it works in unusual situations.

 

[Rudi]

Never jused a clicker , do not need this , voice and obeserving will do . Keep it the traditionel way , it is the best . Tracking can not be done on a modern way .

 

[countrryboy]

I agree with the majority who say voice and tone is enough, but also u are probably people with a wealth off experience in training and working and reading dogs which the general public/average pet owners jist don't have. Also the click is short and instant rather than saying 'good boy/girl' which i know doesn't take a long time to say but is longer, also chance that inexperienced folk will say good boy even when ur dog is not being good so rewarding bad behavior

There are more and more gundog trainers who are using it, or versions of it, althou more for specific problems with dogs they have been brought. It is now gettin more popular with some hpr trainers if their dogs are not natural retrievers to teach it a hold/retrieve.

If u did decide to use it for a training tracking dog it would only be for training and by the time ur dog is ready to go out in the field it would already know wot was expected so u would not need to use it in the field. Really u should not really need it but it may come in handy with occasional dogs if they cannot grasp a paticular aspect of training, or u've made an arse of some of it and created a problem.

I was on a training day with a top gundog trainer he told a story about 1 of his training days, a lady was showing off with her spaniel trained on a clicker, think more obedience training that wanted to try game. She basically taught it to dance on a drain cover very quickly as every time it went on it got rewarded (clicked/treat) so it kept jumping on and off to get rewarded. Took it in the rabbit pen later on and the spaniel hunting instinct took over, ran about full pelt chasing everything in sight, paying no attention to commands/treats.

The clicker may be a modern fad training thing but it probably does have a place in some circumstances for some problem dogs to get over a specific problem, althou it is not a magic wand and most dogs esp with a strong hunting instict will totally ignore treats if they've got there nose to ground

 

[widu]

I agree with Rudi , voice , observation, and if required I was told in Germany to stamp your foot firmly but not to hard or loud the sound ,and movement enforces the command no need for another gadget. Regards Widu.





TO STRIVE, TO SEEK, TO FIND, AND NEVER TO YIELD.

 

[hmrjo]

Hiya,

The clicker is a very useful device and can be applied to any type of dog training, Shutzhund, agility, tracking...whatever. As stated previously the clicker communicates to the the dog that he/she performed the correct behavior and a treat is on its way. In order for this to work you must first train your dog to understand what the 'CLICK' from the clicker means. Once the dog associates the 'click' sound with a reward you can use the clicker to communicate to your dog that he/she has done what you wanted. This effect has traditionally been done with the word 'Good' or 'Good dog'. The advantage of the clicker is that the click is faster than your voice and so the communication that the correct behavior was given comes more quickly and closer in time to the desired behavior. Often times our praise come a second or two later and the time delay makes it harder for the dog to associate the correct behavior with the praise. Dogs reflexes are faster than ours and the clicker allows us to train and their speed.

That being said any method of marking the desired behavior with a reward will work. This is NOT were people go astray. The real problem area in dog training is consistancy. Human beings are notriously inconsistant.