Copper and blood trails
- Thread starter Siggy
- Start date
No, in short.
I shoot Roe with the 80TLR from 6XC. The bullet usually drops them on the spot. Massive internal damage to heart/lungs, minimal carcass damage, calibre sized exit hole from shaft on exit, petals having peeled off and done their thing. Little to no blood trail.
95 LRX Barnes before the Yew Trees used to punch a big hole on exit, significant blood trail which you needed as the deer invariably ran a little way.
114 TLR in 6.5x47 Lapua does the same on Fallow and Red Hinds although they do usually make it 20/30m. Dog always picks them up very quickly but I often struggle to find a blood trail.
If I was worried about having a significant blood trail I would just move up to 6.5mm for Roe and 7mm for Fallow. That helps.
Only shot a few red/Sika stags with Yew Tree 124gr standard bullet (before TLR came out) and they did the same. Will be using 130 TLR in 280ai next season for them and am sure they will behave in the same way.
Impact velocity also plays a big part. Shot a few Roe with the 6XC this year at sub 80m so impact of over 3000 fps. In this case you tend to get 3 or 4 small exit holes and a bit more carcass damage, but still no significant blood trail. The only time I have punched a big exit hole was on a Roe kid - too much bullet for a small frame.
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
More like idiots, try to rewrite them!
Barnes 100 grain ttsx shot at 3200 fps will break both shoulders on a big stag at 300 + nearly every bullet has gone clean through as regards the hole but an off few are just about retained , others can be picked up after looking for a skid mark in shorter grass you can pmostly fing them so long as you look before the gralloch . Probebly no chance of finding the bullet at shorter range small deer and from the foxes i have shot with them about zero. can,t post my files of results as it says " file too large " But rather that than a fussy one eh ?
When it comes to blood trails some people are really good at following them and others can't see blood when it's every where. When I first started I would always go to the shot site then follow the trail even if I could see the deer and I must admit I got good at it and had some very long tracks. I'm getting lazy now and use my thermal. ( I laugh when people say thermal isn't any good at finding deer)
My reloading mentor, when I changed to copper years ago, made an observation about the only down side using copper. He experienced lung and heart matter blocking the exit hole and the animal not leaving a very easy blood trail. I experienced this when using copper bullets at the same speed as lead. However upping the bullet speed to 2800fps did the job.
On reading all the reports I could lay my hands on and looking at the slow motion Barnes TSX into gel blocks compared with lead I concluded at slower speeds the copper expanded a lot quicker than the lead. However the expansion was not as big as lead. This meant a smaller exit wound. With the coppers fast expansion and huge vapour ball debris from the shot was blown into the smaller exit wound, blocking blood flow. This did not happen with lead because of the larger exit wound. Upping the speed made the bullet fully expand and even though the exit wound is generally smaller than lead, it does not get blocked so easily. Conclusion up bullet speed or reduce bullet weight to get an increase in bullet speed. All this is now in the manufacturers guidance to home loaders along with seating depth recommendations. I use .308 with 150 grain and 30-06 with 168 grain both leave reasonable blood trails.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
Not so, a heart shot animal can easily cover 200M and leave no blood, especially if theres no exit wound.
Sika seem to be particularly good at this.
The problem with the heart shot is that there isn’t really a standard response, there are just too many variables.
There is a standard response but there are also deer that don't follow the rules. And as for no blood very few leave no blood but as humans we aren't very good and finding small quantities. I've seen a good dog find tiny pin head size amounts on a trail that would never been seen. I'm trying not to be argumentative but if a sample of 10000 deer were shot in the heart I bet there would be pattern.
So a deer could run 200yards and might not leave any blood and a bullet might not exit but in a 10000 deer test I bet any of these would rate very low on the results.
But I would bet big money on the deer running a short distance and kicking out on shot and blood on the trail being at the top of the results.
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
I learnt many years ago, that once a bullet has left the barrel of a rifle, you are in a chain of events you have absolutely no control over!
A Shite shot will happen eventually, regardless of you do your bit or not!
Lead or copper, they are all mass made by the 10’s of 1000’s their will be wrong’uns that don’t do as prescribed,
A Shite shot will happen eventually, regardless of you do your bit or not!
Lead or copper, they are all mass made by the 10’s of 1000’s their will be wrong’uns that don’t do as prescribed,
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
I‘ll take your bet.
I gave up on chest and heart shots precisely because the deer often couldn’t be found ( that and the carcass damage ).
As for the ” classic response” I’ve seen it, I’ve also seen no reaction whatsoever and I’ve seen them drop so fast that it was over before the rifle came back on target. Like I said previously, the reaction is variable, which is one reason tracking dogs are in big demand.
Adyb
Well-Known Member
Heart or just above the heart guarantees a kill and minimal meat damage. Valuable particularly when you'll only get a few tags per season like where I hunt so 1st choice. Downside is they often will run a bit so it depends on terrain and availability of a suitable dog. Blood trail in this situation is important and I like to see one and go for a tougher bullet myself, copper or otherwise (actual benefit is debatable, i.e explosive round might have knocked the beast down quicker but not exited....).
If I'm high up or in heavy scrub I'll go for the shoulder so it drops fast but also knowing I'll loose good meat.
If I'm high up or in heavy scrub I'll go for the shoulder so it drops fast but also knowing I'll loose good meat.
So you will take the bet that the majority of deer shot in the heart won't jump and won't die within 100yards and won't leave any blood? With a deer legal calibre
I won't be the first to say that a lost deer is 100% meat loss!
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
So you need the kick out, the short run (100Yds or less) and the blood trail in the majority of cases where deer are heart shot.
If it drops to the shot, runs a bit farther than 100Yds or doesn’t leave a visible blood trail its not typical and doesn’t count?
We need to get a couple of reliable stalkers on the job, how many deer do you want to sample?
Deer legal will include.22/250 and .223 in Scotland and ROI.
We need to agree on the species too, I’d vote for the 3 bigger ones, the smaller species are in a different class.
Adyb
Well-Known Member
I'd say if you hit or clip the heart it's going down pretty fast - 100m must be within a very high probability.
A bit high/back and double lung/liver is a different story - still going down but I've seen charged up reds/boars do 300m+
Indeed high shoulder and it drops on the spot for sure and if your a bit fwd aft (assuming level/,broadside etc) you got a bit of insurance as in line with the spinal column. My view:
1) Close in - neck
2) Good for a confident shot and dont mind a short track - hit em in the heart
3) high shoulder
Above assumes a 30-06 or 7RM - might revise for a 6.5CM
A bit high/back and double lung/liver is a different story - still going down but I've seen charged up reds/boars do 300m+
Indeed high shoulder and it drops on the spot for sure and if your a bit fwd aft (assuming level/,broadside etc) you got a bit of insurance as in line with the spinal column. My view:
1) Close in - neck
2) Good for a confident shot and dont mind a short track - hit em in the heart
3) high shoulder
Above assumes a 30-06 or 7RM - might revise for a 6.5CM
I'm sure its not going count.
I took someone out tonight and they shot 3 fallow 2 head shot ( don't count obviously) 1 heart shot (I was watching with thermal) blood spraying all over the place like a sprinkler and got a maximum of 60yards ( probably less).
Again it's not going to help but I will ask my team of stalkers/under stalkers to let me know when one runs over a hundred yards.
Another outing I think it was Thursday one of my stalkers shot a big doe in the heart and I helped him recover it and I joked with him about the amount of blood. It died within 100 yards of the seat he was sat in.
All 7 other deer shot this weekend were head shot again.
I'm out again to cull lowland reds just after Xmas so I will keep a record of the ones that run over 100yards.
Again I'm not saying they don't run over 100yards but if chest/heart shot more times than not they are dead with in a hundred yards.
I will make a offer if you ever find yourself in the New forest give me a call and we can go out together and shoot as many as possible. I would love to make a friend in Ireland that we can start swap hunts with.
I took someone out tonight and they shot 3 fallow 2 head shot ( don't count obviously) 1 heart shot (I was watching with thermal) blood spraying all over the place like a sprinkler and got a maximum of 60yards ( probably less).
Again it's not going to help but I will ask my team of stalkers/under stalkers to let me know when one runs over a hundred yards.
Another outing I think it was Thursday one of my stalkers shot a big doe in the heart and I helped him recover it and I joked with him about the amount of blood. It died within 100 yards of the seat he was sat in.
All 7 other deer shot this weekend were head shot again.
I'm out again to cull lowland reds just after Xmas so I will keep a record of the ones that run over 100yards.
Again I'm not saying they don't run over 100yards but if chest/heart shot more times than not they are dead with in a hundred yards.
I will make a offer if you ever find yourself in the New forest give me a call and we can go out together and shoot as many as possible. I would love to make a friend in Ireland that we can start swap hunts with.
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
I might be able to help you gents out here:
106 deer shot (with copper) in the chest (not including high shoulder shots, low neck shots, shots breaking the diaphragm) so only true heart/lungs, longest run distance was 45m with the average run distance at just 3.40 metres run distance.
Shot distances ranged between 20-321m with a variety of calibres used (6.5x47,.308,7RM to name just a few).
This data set is publicly available on here on a previous thread, I can supply a view only link to anyone who wants it.
Ben
If we agreed on only fallow, sika and red in Scotland with a 22/250 or .223 the hardest part will be finding someone to break the law then write it up on a open forum.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
So we go with the bigger deer and all legal calibers regardless of where they’re shot?
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