Copper suitable for stags for 243

[roaring_stag]

Perthshire Game in Perth are taking lead shot beasts at the moment… give them a message - Perthshiregame@gmail.com

 

[Brian243]

Disagree entirely. I’d put my money on .243 being obsolete in the UK within a few years, unofficially of course.

Reason is that we Buy guns from manufacturers who will not be making faster rate twist barrels for the .243 as they are not impacted by imminent legality changes like we look to be. Therefore, people will opt for alternatives.

Not so, as reported on this site in earlier posts and confirmed by GMK all new Tikka and Sako rifles in .243 Win will have 1:8 twist barrels from May this year.

 

[luv2safari]

Have a look at this page from Peregrine which twist rates needed for the different bullets. Also not that spin is also a function of speed, and in load development have definitely seen group size shrink with velocity.

Peregrines get their expansion by having a bronze tip that acts as a wedge to initiate expansion in their VLR4 and VRG3 bullets. In tests on ballistic gel and in water jugs there is good expansion even down range. Difficult to show expanded bullets once they have been through a deer, because they cut a good hole straight through.

Because monolithics hold together, you need to rethink the need for bullet weight to get penetration. So a 130 or 140gr monolithic bullet will work like a 162 or 173gn lead, but will be launched at a higher velocity so will almost certainly arrive with more energy. Long high BCs launched at lower velocities really only take over at 300 plus metres.

So the vast majorities of rifles there are perfectly usable monolithic bullets out there. Here in Scotland we have a legal min bullet weight of 100gn for any deer other than Roe. 243 win is a very popular calibre in UK and most are 1 in 10” twist rate. It works best with an 80 to 95gn bullet - regardless of type, and in mono’s an 80gn is very good and will punch right the way through any deer.

With the VRG3, which is a blunt nosed bullet, it’s short enough to stabilise in a 1 in 10” twist rate 243, and @Edinburgh Rifles have developed factory ammo that gives a viable option for those wanting to use their 243s on bigger deer.

VRG3 ballistic data and twist rates

VRG3 Ballistics

VRG2 and VRG3 Ballistic Information Please note that VRG3 bullets in 375 and bigger calibres are ideal for Dangerous Game Hunting. In most cases the application would range from 40 to 100m. For these distances BC are not really important. Quite often the VRG3 bullets in smaller calibres will...

peregrinebullets.co.za

VLR4 ballistic data and twist rates

VLR4 & VLR5 Ballistics

Ballistic Coefficient information for the VLR4 and VLR5 bullet family from Peregrine VLR4 = Expanding Copper Bullet for Hunting VLR5 = Non Expanding Copper Bullet for Practise/Target Shooting Information in this section is accurate and very useful for customers that would like to make

peregrinebullets.co.za

The increased velocity of the lighter weight bullets would certainly offset a slower twist. It's hard to break the training of 65 years shooting high power rifles with cup n core bullets. It was my frame of reference for a loooong time.

 

[baguio]

Oh deer I just have to disagree with that been killing Red deer with .243 for the last forty years

Not with lead free you haven't!

 

[bogtrotter]

That's true but there are copper that will fit the bill especially as a home loader.
Don't have to I also have a.270 I just prefer the .243

 

[Heym SR20]

The increased velocity of the lighter weight bullets would certainly offset a slower twist. It's hard to break the training of 65 years shooting high power rifles with cup n core bullets. It was my frame of reference for a loooong time.

It’s funny, scary how time passes. I grew up in the 70’s and 80’s so 65 years ago feels pre war to me. But its not. Its late 50’s early 60’s.

But reading old shooting literature 120 years ago people were still coming to terms with these new fangled breech loading magazine rifles. Not nearly as versatile as the muzzle loading cap locks of their youth.

I do see monolithics being the next generation of bullets. We are still early in the journey. When you started hunting 65 years ago things like the Brenneke bullets and the 270 were already 25 / 30 ofd years old, and Nosler Partitions (1948) were the new cutting edge tech. The ballistic tips (1970’s) were still are few years away.

 

[luv2safari]

It’s funny, scary how time passes. I grew up in the 70’s and 80’s so 65 years ago feels pre war to me. But its not. Its late 50’s early 60’s.

But reading old shooting literature 120 years ago people were still coming to terms with these new fangled breech loading magazine rifles. Not nearly as versatile as the muzzle loading cap locks of their youth.

I do see monolithics being the next generation of bullets. We are still early in the journey. When you started hunting 65 years ago things like the Brenneke bullets and the 270 were already 25 / 30 ofd years old, and Nosler Partitions (1948) were the new cutting edge tech. The ballistic tips (1970’s) were still are few years away.

The first Noslers were made by hand on a lathe, I believe. He made them for his personal use after a 1946 Canadian moose hunt where a cup n core bullet failed when shot from a 300 H&H. I remember my dad had some Nosler 30 cal bullets that had hand turned jackets. I wish I had that box.

 

[Heym SR20]

The first Noslers were made by hand on a lathe, I believe. He made them for his personal use after a 1946 Canadian moose hunt where a cup n core bullet failed when shot from a 300 H&H. I remember my dad had some Nosler 30 cal bullets that had hand turned jackets. I wish I had that box.

And I bet they were not cheap!

 

[monarman]

Was interesting to hear on a YouTube review of a tikka rifle that that tikka are to be I trouncing the .243 with a 1 in 8 twist soon... to stabilise the longer and heavier bullets.... that'll be interesting

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Was interesting to hear on a YouTube review of a tikka rifle that that tikka are to be I trouncing the .243 with a 1 in 8 twist soon... to stabilise the longer and heavier bullets.... that'll be interesting

That is good news but if we are purely looking at ability of bullets and not taking national law into account, I believe that 80gr - 90gr copper is doing very well on most deer species with 1 in 10 twist rifles?

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Hi all,

My neighbour uses 100gr Winchester power point to deal with the occasional marauding stag. Normally sub 100m distance and he normally takes a neck shot.
He wants to move to copper (game dealers are requiring it more and more here in central Scotland).
I use Hornady and Sako copper in my 6.5 CM but can’t find any copper for 243 that is 100gr or more.
I see lots of 80 and 85gr copper for 243 but assume it won’t be enough for a stag albeit at close range.
What is the minimum gr and velocity he should look for in copper for stags and can you recommend any ammunition?
Or is 243 just not enough rifle for stags with copper?

Thanks guys!
Keith

Most European legislation does not allow the use of a 243 Win or any other 6mm to be used for red deer. Our approach is an outlier that ignores science and animal welfare.
Regards
JCS

 

[csl]

Remember that the original starter of this thread is shooting in the UK so wants legal calibres and loads for the UK only please.

 

[Rob-E]

To revive an old thread.
Since this thread started the minimum bullet weight for red, sika, and fallow deer in Scotland is 80gr, effective from November 2023. This is in addition to the existing requirements of a minimum muzzle energy of 1,750 foot pounds and a muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second. For roe deer, the minimum requirements for bullet weight, muzzle energy, and muzzle velocity have not changed.

So is peregrine peoples bullet of choice? I’ve used the factory Winchester copper 85gr on hinds to good effect but wasn’t as good on the stags. I’ve read very good things about Barnes TTSX but they’re as light as 80gr which is the minimum, and while they maybe of superior construction I’m not keen on going lighter.

 

[Bowland blades]

To revive an old thread.
Since this thread started the minimum bullet weight for red, sika, and fallow deer in Scotland is 80gr, effective from November 2023. This is in addition to the existing requirements of a minimum muzzle energy of 1,750 foot pounds and a muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second. For roe deer, the minimum requirements for bullet weight, muzzle energy, and muzzle velocity have not changed.

So is peregrine peoples bullet of choice? I’ve used the factory Winchester copper 85gr on hinds to good effect but wasn’t as good on the stags. I’ve read very good things about Barnes TTSX but they’re as light as 80gr which is the minimum, and while they maybe of superior construction I’m not keen on going lighter.

I have Shot a lot of beasts with the 100 grain tTSX Big red stags through the line up to little Muntjac. Thats with a .260 ( same as a .243 necked up 1mm) So i think your all good and send them fast , in my experience speed is the thing with copper. You will be 20 grains less but i dont see any issues ( I shot .243 for decades ) Just check it out at reasonable ranges working up from roe to the larger species. .243 has been killing large deer in many nations with less than 100 grain lead bullets right ? Copper bullets do best at the higher impact speeds ( got a feeling you will be pleased ) 20 grains of copper less is unlikely to tip the apple cart !