bottletopbill
Well-Known Member
Sorry I was asking for help for other's and for all seasons we are allowed to shoot.
Deer. Endangered Species???
- Thread starter B&W FOX
- Start date
Smart arris lol, lol, lol , my name is on a few write ups as you well know , but ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Just had a study of the write ups mate and your name is sadly missing too
you are correct , nowt for the last 2 weeks ,( and the posts will be fewer off ones self in the future , coz there is always some one critizing when I do post , and me and the lads I stalk with don't post half of our stuff on here because of this ) .
And I'm.fishing etc on Anglesey ,
And I've caught ,,,,,,,,
Sod all lol , lol, lol
Kjf
Please allow generalizations, with the understanding there are plenty of exceptions.
In general, the population of fallow across the south and east is very high and increasing. The impacts of fallow on nature conservation, woodland and agriculture are high. So the population needs to be reduced significantly to reach some level of overall sustainability.
The only way to reduce the population is by culling the does. More does need to be culled each year than are born. But the exact number of breeding does in any area is not known, so the approach should be to cull as many does as possible until the census/impacts are seen to be reducing.
In general, meeting a doe cull is really challenging and becomes more so during Dec/Jan during the winter inappetence. In many situations, every shot that is taken makes taking the next one more difficult.
In general, bucks are less challenging than does and having shot a buck many stalkers are not going to start again for a doe as well. By prioritizing does but allowing bucks to be shot as well, tends to end up with a buck shot and no does.
So, where fallow populations are high and in many areas considered pretty much out of control, there is no hope of reducing the population without being 100% focused on does and no bucks.
In many areas, the sex ratio is severely skewed towards does, so allowing a few more to develop and join the buck group wouldn’t be a bad thing anyway in my view. But there is no way that all stalkers would voluntarily work on the no buck approach, so there will always be bucks being culled and it will be those who are concerned for the impacts of fallow on natural capital who will be the ones trying to reduce the overall population.
Thanks for the reply and I completly understand and agree with the arguments for and need to cull does heavily to reduce a population.
I see your point about a stalker wanting to take a buck and then not bothering with does - which comes back to the root cause of the population growth - recrational stalkers! I suppose this comes down to landowners and conditions of any leases - demand a high doe cull, down let leases to "agents" who then sell bucks. Of course it the ages old issue of money talking and no universal agreement to cull heavily (or indeed at all)
Couldn't agree more! The lack of universal agreement to cull heavily in areas of high numbers is a real concern. What will the situation be like in 10 years time...
Jagare
Well-Known Member
I left England nearly twenty years ago and there are many more fallow now than then. It would take some joined up thinking in the stalking community to get the problem under control. I doubt very much that is going to happen. The answer as above is cull substantially more does than are being culled at the moment.
I'll hopefully be back the first week in November and try and do my tiny bit to reduce the fallow doe and muntjac population.
sikamalc
Administrator
A few uncalled for remarks on here.
There are over 27,000 registered members on here. However just because they do not post everyday of the week does not mean they are not they shooting deer. I have met many members off this site. Some join to gain experience and look for stalking, others are experienced stalkers and do not post much. People join for many reasons, and if they post, or decide not to post and just read, don't judge people by their lack of posting.
I always notice its the few that are quick to make a comment on such subjects.
As for deer numbers, I think we can all agree that the Fallow situation in southern England is now becoming a real problem. Its a full time job to try and keep on top of the numbers. Especially when the surrounding areas are not managed. There is NO chance of deer dying out anywhere soon in the UK. All species are expanding in their range. Scotland has its own issues with the carbon capture business now, but I have seen the Sika in N Scotland expand their range over the past 30 odd years to areas where 30 years ago you never saw one. Now they are every where.
There are over 27,000 registered members on here. However just because they do not post everyday of the week does not mean they are not they shooting deer. I have met many members off this site. Some join to gain experience and look for stalking, others are experienced stalkers and do not post much. People join for many reasons, and if they post, or decide not to post and just read, don't judge people by their lack of posting.
I always notice its the few that are quick to make a comment on such subjects.
As for deer numbers, I think we can all agree that the Fallow situation in southern England is now becoming a real problem. Its a full time job to try and keep on top of the numbers. Especially when the surrounding areas are not managed. There is NO chance of deer dying out anywhere soon in the UK. All species are expanding in their range. Scotland has its own issues with the carbon capture business now, but I have seen the Sika in N Scotland expand their range over the past 30 odd years to areas where 30 years ago you never saw one. Now they are every where.
bottletopbill
Well-Known Member
Many shooters in southern England are trying to gain a permission but some land owners do not want to control the deer on there land.
I had land to shoot deer but then the owner said No a she wants the deer to roam the land.
But I am trying to gain a perm's as other's are.
I had land to shoot deer but then the owner said No a she wants the deer to roam the land.
But I am trying to gain a perm's as other's are.
Absolutely and what is forgotten in the debate is that habitats are both temporary and transient. Yes, new planting schemes change the environment of deer and result in deer being fenced out to allow the trees to establish, but once they are established the fences will come down (either removed or through decay) and deer will reclaim these areas.
In fact as many of the schemes are broadleaves there is a strong argument that they will have an improved habitat
foxdropper
Well-Known Member
I feel your pain mate .
Should be local registers landowners can call upon which supercede other agreements with stalkers on the ground .
Compulsary culls are the only way forward but we have to get beyond the money ,land grabbing issue first .
Stalkers should have to register cull numbers backed up with larder slips to justify their position .
Im still bitter and twisted over losing ground to a vegan farmer .
Have you had any thoughts on how a register might be implemented? Agreed - shared objectives and trust are two significant obstacles.
@Alastair Boston Have you come across any attempts to put together and use registers of stalkers to connect with landowners?
According to the AA more than 42,000 deer are killed each year on the roads and it's a number that is only increasing. Incidentally, over 400 people are killed in these accidents.
With the amount of "refugees" and other immigrants that land in the UK each year, the accidents aren't having much effect on the human population I'd venture to say (but that's a tad off topic). However, the deer population is obviously more than capable of sustaining such losses.
I have no inkling of how many deer are killed by stalkers to add to the road carnage numbers, but it's not rocket science to say that although that will have some effect, especially where there's some organisation to it, there's other areas where they get shot out (if only temporarily) and yet others where managing deer numbers is forbidden. And again, (speculatively) I wonder if the areas where deer aren't controlled is a lot greater percentage-wise than we might think.
It might come to pass that land owners will have a responsibility to manage deer populations enforced. But I fear that this will be some way down the line as, of course enacting or enforcing laws that encourage the use of rifles and shooting deer would be perceived as an unpopular move by many of our upstanding (I jest) elected representatives..
With the amount of "refugees" and other immigrants that land in the UK each year, the accidents aren't having much effect on the human population I'd venture to say (but that's a tad off topic). However, the deer population is obviously more than capable of sustaining such losses.
I have no inkling of how many deer are killed by stalkers to add to the road carnage numbers, but it's not rocket science to say that although that will have some effect, especially where there's some organisation to it, there's other areas where they get shot out (if only temporarily) and yet others where managing deer numbers is forbidden. And again, (speculatively) I wonder if the areas where deer aren't controlled is a lot greater percentage-wise than we might think.
It might come to pass that land owners will have a responsibility to manage deer populations enforced. But I fear that this will be some way down the line as, of course enacting or enforcing laws that encourage the use of rifles and shooting deer would be perceived as an unpopular move by many of our upstanding (I jest) elected representatives..
Alastair Boston
Well-Known Member
I suggest contacting The BDS, BASC or the relevant deer management group if there is one for the area.Landscape scale deer management targeting of the correct sex/species,stalker and owner co-operation is key if we are ever going to realistically address the high fallow doe numbers. You are also not going to get every landowner/stalker buying into active deer management you must accept this move on and direct your time,resources and team work appropriately.
This whole subject requires to be brought out in the open far more and somehow all of us need to be upfront and work collectively in trying to address the issue of large fallow numbers in certain areas. Some people may not agree with me but far more team work is required.
The above is my own personal view I hasten to add.
SimonDodsworth
Well-Known Member
Sadly people whine, moan and grizzle in all pastimes. Whining, moaning and grizzling is a British pastime in itself
bottletopbill
Well-Known Member
Yes a good idea to have a register but remember a lot of folks have shot deer for years and do not hold DS1 and like many other's feel they do not want to sit it.
Those of us over sixty years old. Yes land owner's have rules to stick to about deer and controlling them but who checks on this.
Those of us over sixty years old. Yes land owner's have rules to stick to about deer and controlling them but who checks on this.
I think that figure of 400 deaths is incorrect. I believe there are around 75,000 reported vehicle - deer collisions in the UK each year, resulting in about 25 human fatalities.
foxdropper
Well-Known Member
Tbh no sir ,I’m a killer not a pen pusher BUT what I do know is that any register should not be run by stalkers or the old boys club will surface and we are back to square one .Needs to be run by landowners ,the people with more at stake than upsetting an old friend because he wasn’t invited .
We have discussed and whinged about the subject for far too long without action .
Let results do the talking and those without do the walking .
And who will be clicking all the numbers of pigeons/corvids/rabbits also writing down the numbers then dishing out the paper work let alone the deer
It seems lots of people who have the privilege to go on landowners ground want them to do more...
These bright ideas pop up know and then with the same " they should do this or that" farms have much more to concentrate on than counting deer..
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