Deer waste requirements for food business

[Alantoo]

The exemption, as I understand it, is codified in REGULATION (EC) No 852/2004 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 29 April 2004 on the hygiene of foodstuffs
This is the regulation that covers all the hygiene stuff that is relevant to a food business operator. From which primary producers are exempted. As stated above. 2004 is still the current version.

Absolutely...the exemption from the European Food Law is referenced in paragraph 17 of the Wild Game Guide...but the part you seem to be overlooking is that paragraph 17 along with its footnote also points out that if your supply involves pecuniary advantage you are running a food supply business and therefore must register as such with your local authority.

If it is not friends or family, it is business and must be registered as such. see paragraph 15.

If what you are saying is true there would be no need for paragraph 15....Why would "friends or family" be mentioned at all unless they were distinct from registered business supply? They would be covered by your claimed local and small scale hunters’ exemption and therefore would not need to be identified as a distinct category.

Alan

 

[Sharpie]

Absolutely...the exemption from the European Food Law is referenced in paragraph 17 of the Wild Game Guide...but the part you seem to be overlooking is that paragraph 17 along with its footnote also points out that if your supply involves pecuniary advantage you are running a food supply business and therefore must register as such with your local authority.

If it is not friends or family, it is business and must be registered as such. see paragraph 15.

If what you are saying is true there would be no need for paragraph 15....Why would "friends or family" be mentioned at all unless they were distinct from registered business supply? They would be covered by your claimed local and small scale hunters’ exemption and therefore would not need to be identified as a distinct category.

Alan

This is just one of the reasons why the England/Wales WGG is so badly in need of an update.

I pointed out the ambiguity if not contradiction of that paragraph earlier.



Either it is a food business that requires registering, or it is not. You can't have it both ways, i.e. "irrespective of whether the individual or estate is a food business or not" Which is it ?

Lots of what is in that old guide seems to me not to be entirely joined together.

I do not know of anything in European law that states that as soon as pecuniary advantage occurs it automatically becomes a "food business" that requires registering in the way that is being discussed here. Show me that legislation, if it exists.

Sure, it is a small business, involving food. A food business. But not necessarily needing to be registered with your local authority, though that should be easy enough, and free, given a knowledgeable and co-operative EHO. If you really feel the need to do that. Who might just advise that you don't actually need to do so.

Probably need to fill in a self employment tax return though. Cash in hand, no questions asked,, no paperwork, is not acceptable nowadays, even though (or so I am told) used to be the tradition.

Certainly this is how it has been interpreted in the modern Scottish WGG. With a clear statement that it is NOT a food business. Just as Best Practice guides clearly also state that it is not.

The VGDL is a red herring. It has nothing to do with food standards, it is a piece of added bureaucracy, deemed necessary for their circumstances, since 1996 ISTR when it was first introduced. It is also useful for their police, if say pulling over a vehicle on suspicion that there might be poached venison inside it. They are entitled to require the production of a VGDL, or other justification as to why there is a dead deer, or bits of one. Or maybe even an un-tagged wild salmon. Maybe a rifle with a lamping or NV setup as well, which might raise further suspicions.

A Scottish resident may have one just by filling in the form and paying the fee (about £80 for three years, not really a great amount if your anything other than just doing this as a minor hobby and can't set it off against tax, as a business expense.

I may not, because I do not have a Scottish address. So I cannot personally sell anything that I might shoot in Scotland, in Scotland, except to someone who does have a VGDL. But, if say I did so in the Scottish Borders, or Dumfries&Galloway, or on any Scottish Island, I could drive over to England and sell it there. At least I think so.

Excuse for no VGDL might be such as "I'm on the way home to larder it, then I will either eat it myself, or sell it to a retailer, who does have a VGDL" or "I've shot it myself on xyz land, where I have permission, and am taking it home for my friends and family" Or "I have paid or simply been invited for stalking by so and so, this is my deer. 'Phone them up and check, though it is long past their bed time". Or even "I am a trained hunter and registered as a food business in England, see the tag on it, so am on my way to xyz AGHE to sell it to them, please don't delay me, it's not refrigerated and I would not want to put bad meat into the food chain""

You have checked me and my vehicle on the computer, seen my ID, seen my FAC, you know where to find me if I have done anything wrong.

Sorry to have troubled you sir, be on your way, I'll let the others know not to pull you over again. Thank you officer for doing your job.

Just an imagined scenario.

Shall we put this on pause until the new, hopefully more clear, guidance is published ?

Agreed, but the way things seem to be going that might take a while longer. As and when the second draft, and it's consultation begins I'll try to participate, but the way it was done last time the consultees were a closed shop, industry bodies all. Mostly AGHEs who may have slightly different motivations than those of the stalkers who supply them with in the fur carcasses. The draft not publicly available. Not for the likes of me to see or comment.

BASC are, /i think,, on the inside, Perhaps at least one of their multitude of staff is tasked to do so. @Conor O'Gorman might be able to give us an update, but I rather suspect he is more preoccupied with the lead-ban developments ATM. rather than with deer stalking, specifically the primary producer exemption. per se..

I agree that this may seem rather abstruse to many, the scenarios of selling primary produce direct to the public, or to a local retailer are probably a very minor part of the business. Nevertheless these liberties ought to be preserved. Some of us still rely on them.

 

[25 Sharps]

This is just one of the reasons why the England/Wales WGG is so badly in need of an update.

I pointed out the ambiguity if not contradiction of that paragraph earlier.

View attachment 258596

Either it is a food business that requires registering, or it is not. You can't have it both ways, i.e. "irrespective of whether the individual or estate is a food business or not" Which is it ?

Lots of what is in that old guide seems to me not to be entirely joined together.

I do not know of anything in European law that states that as soon as pecuniary advantage occurs it automatically becomes a "food business" that requires registering in the way that is being discussed here. Show me that legislation, if it exists.

Sure, it is a small business, involving food. A food business. But not necessarily needing to be registered with your local authority, though that should be easy enough, and free, given a knowledgeable and co-operative EHO. If you really feel the need to do that. Who might just advise that you don't actually need to do so.

Probably need to fill in a self employment tax return though. Cash in hand, no questions asked,, no paperwork, is not acceptable nowadays, even though (or so I am told) used to be the tradition.

Certainly this is how it has been interpreted in the modern Scottish WGG. With a clear statement that it is NOT a food business. Just as Best Practice guides clearly also state that it is not.

The VGDL is a red herring. It has nothing to do with food standards, it is a piece of added bureaucracy, deemed necessary for their circumstances, since 1996 ISTR when it was first introduced. It is also useful for their police, if say pulling over a vehicle on suspicion that there might be poached venison inside it. They are entitled to require the production of a VGDL, or other justification as to why there is a dead deer, or bits of one. Or maybe even an un-tagged wild salmon. Maybe a rifle with a lamping or NV setup as well, which might raise further suspicions.

A Scottish resident may have one just by filling in the form and paying the fee (about £80 for three years, not really a great amount if your anything other than just doing this as a minor hobby and can't set it off against tax, as a business expense.

I may not, because I do not have a Scottish address. So I cannot personally sell anything that I might shoot in Scotland, in Scotland, except to someone who does have a VGDL. But, if say I did so in the Scottish Borders, or Dumfries&Galloway, or on any Scottish Island, I could drive over to England and sell it there. At least I think so.

Excuse for no VGDL might be such as "I'm on the way home to larder it, then I will either eat it myself, or sell it to a retailer, who does have a VGDL" or "I've shot it myself on xyz land, where I have permission, and am taking it home for my friends and family" Or "I have paid or simply been invited for stalking by so and so, this is my deer. 'Phone them up and check, though it is long past their bed time". Or even "I am a trained hunter and registered as a food business in England, see the tag on it, so am on my way to xyz AGHE to sell it to them, please don't delay me, it's not refrigerated and I would not want to put bad meat into the food chain""

You have checked me and my vehicle on the computer, seen my ID, seen my FAC, you know where to find me if I have done anything wrong.

Sorry to have troubled you sir, be on your way, I'll let the others know not to pull you over again. Thank you officer for doing your job.

Just an imagined scenario.


Agreed, but the way things seem to be going that might take a while longer. As and when the second draft, and it's consultation begins I'll try to participate, but the way it was done last time the consultees were a closed shop, industry bodies all. Mostly AGHEs who may have slightly different motivations than those of the stalkers who supply them with in the fur carcasses. The draft not publicly available. Not for the likes of me to see or comment.

BASC are, /i think,, on the inside, Perhaps at least one of their multitude of staff is tasked to do so. @Conor O'Gorman might be able to give us an update, but I rather suspect he is more preoccupied with the lead-ban developments ATM. rather than with deer stalking, specifically the primary producer exemption. per se..

I agree that this may seem rather abstruse to many, the scenarios of selling primary produce direct to the public, or to a local retailer are probably a very minor part of the business. Nevertheless these liberties ought to be preserved. Some of us still rely on them.

I noted one query listed as ‘private individual’ on the previous individual.

Either way I am setting up as a food business as I am planning on processing and selling venison

 

[Alantoo]

Show me that legislation, if it exists

The footnote to paragraph 17 is unequivocal.

Nevertheless these liberties ought to be preserved. Some of us still rely on them

The liberties to supply food into the food chain for sale or reward without registering as a food business do not exist is my understanding.

The Hunter’s Exemption from food or food business laws is that they can supply food to friends and family by gift.

I understood that home killed domestic farmed animals are subject to even more stringent rules. And that in that case it is only for consumption by immediate family.

Alan

 

[VSS]

I understood that home killed domestic animals are subject to even more stringent rules. And that in that case it is only to immediate family.

Alan

Indeed, they're much stricter. Its only to immediate family normally resident in the same household. And that only applies to pigs. In the case of sheep / goats / cattle, TSE regulations also have to be adhered to if it is to be consumed by anyone other than the person who actually killed it, which isn't easy to comply with in a home-kill situation.
So, deer stalkers are very lucky, and shouldn't rock the boat by looking for loopholes otherwise we might find that things get tightened up.

 

[Alantoo]

Either it is a food business that requires registering, or it is not. You can't have it both ways, i.e. "irrespective of whether the individual or estate is a food business or not" Which is it ?

I don’t understand what you find so ambiguous about that paragraph.

It is clearly saying that even if you were exempt under the one law you wouldn’t
be under the other.

Alan

 

[Sharpie]

The footnote to paragraph 17 is unequivocal.

The liberties to supply food into the food chain for sale or reward without registering as a food business do not exist is my understanding.

The Hunter’s Exemption from food or food business laws is that they can supply food to friends and family by gift.

Oh dear, read it again. It does not only apply to friends/family as a gift, but also to local retail establishments who may then process it and sell it to the public

Or simply just sell the furry/feathered carcases direct to the public.

But please, stop retreating to quoting yet again from the ancient 2015 England/Wales WGG just because it suits your argument. I'm not sure where you are going with this, or quite why.

The exemption exists, and I don't think that it is going away any time soon. Unless GB unilaterally decides to do away with it in the future, for whatever reasons (maybe some anti pressure). It is retained legislation post-Brexit and AFAIK will continue to be retained.

The Scots are perfectly clear about this.

It doesn't seem to have caused any significant public health problems either here or in the EU, so doesn't need fixing. It is a tiny part of production, but nevertheless an important freedom for some. It is not a loophole.

Introducing home kill domestic farmed animals to the discussion is just whataboutery. This discussion is about wild game. Mind you, we could open the can of worms that is the distinction between truly wild game, that kept inside deer parks (wild, or not ?) and deer farms. Sure some deer parks are big enough, with sufficiently low stock density that the deer are in all respects, wild. But maybe some others aren't really. Loophole ?

Then things such as an animal jumped the fence and caused an RTA. Sorry its a deer park, not my responsibility for what wild animals do. No ear tag ? BTW how som park kepers aquire their breeding stock. Maybe from a farm with ear tags. Once they are introduced to the park, are you then allowed to remove those tags ?

I'm sure @VSS is far more knowledgeable about this than many others.

PS VSS, if I offered you a deer carcase for you to then process and sell at your established farm shop, or maybe mail order customers, legally supplied under the exemption, from which you could make a good profit, would you be interested ? Just speaking hypothetically. In my case it would come with a legitimate tag with my trained hunter number on it. Not that that is a requirement. Together with my personal assurance of traceability and that it was safe when I sold it to you. Maybe you could expand your business that way, as others have already done.

Let's encourage that, and cut out the AGHEs from all of that. Whilst recognising that AGHES do still serve a purpose, but their interests, and those of supermarkets, are not necessarily aligned with ours.

Then we have legal niceties such as if I were to pay for a guided stalk and succeed, what may I do with the carcase ? If I didn't have to pay extra for this, use the exemption. Whereas if it was "you may buy the carcase at game dealers' rate" sort of thing, Or even just "you can have it, for £1", I may not. Just keep it for me, friends and family.

Indeed, they're much stricter. Its only to immediate family normally resident in the same household. And that only applies to pigs. In the case of sheep / goats / cattle, TSE regulations also have to be adhered to if it is to be consumed by anyone other than the person who actually killed it, which isn't easy to comply with in a home-kill situation.
So, deer stalkers are very lucky, and shouldn't rock the boat by looking for loopholes otherwise we might find that things get tightened up.

I'm sure Desperate Dan could have eaten a whole cow that he had home-killed.

 

[VSS]

PS VSS, if I offered you a deer carcase for you to then process and sell at your established farm shop, or maybe mail order customers, legally supplied under the exemption, from which you could make a good profit, would you be interested ? Just speaking hypothetically. In my case it would come with a legitimate tag with my trained hunter number on it. Not that that is a requirement. Together with my personal assurance of traceability and that it was safe when I sold it to you. Maybe you could expand your business that way, as others have already done.

I think - but not certain - that I would have to be an AGHE to be able to do that.
Certainly when I registered as a food business in order to sell my venison my EH inspector made it quite clear that it applied only to deer shot by myself or by Mouse, or by someone under our direct supervision. She did say she'd stretch it to allow deer from other stalkers on the same estate, even if I not present, provided they're trained hunter etc.
It was made clear to me that there would be additional hoops to jump through if I wanted to buy in carcasses for onward sale.

 

[Sharpie]

I think - but not certain - that I would have to be an AGHE to be able to do that.
Certainly when I registered as a food business in order to sell my venison my EH inspector made it quite clear that it applied only to deer shot by myself or by Mouse, or by someone under our direct supervision. She did say she'd stretch it to allow deer from other stalkers on the same estate, even if I not present, provided they're trained hunter etc.
It was made clear to me that there would be additional hoops to jump through if I wanted to buy in carcasses for onward sale.

I'm pretty sure that you don't have to be an AGHE. Actually I'm quite certain about that.

Again, from the Scottish guide:


You are, as I understand it, a local retail establishment that directly supplies the final consumer (who does not have to be local). Otherwise you would already have to be an AGHE

To become an AGHE is a massive undertaking, goodness knows what the overheads of that must be. Certainly not something for a one-man-band or Fred in a shed people.

Nothing wrong with some properly run "Fred in a shed" operations BTW, I buy a lot of stuff from one. Usually 'phone him up first to ask him to keep aside my order, because everything he puts on the counter sells pretty much immediately, he cant keep up with demand, and doesn't want to expand. Nowadays he only opens up the shop 2 days/week. The rest of us call him up, discuss our order, then pop round to his house to collect it at a mutually convenient time.

Neither is it absolutely necessary that your supplier be a trained hunter, again the Scottish guide explicitly states this. However I suggest that it would be imprudent for you not to insist that they are.

As I understand it, you are permitted to source primary produce from your county, and all those bordering it.

Then process it under the remit of whatever your EHO and you agree upon. Then retail it to the public, from your farm shop, or by mail order anywhere in the UK. I think there is an opportunity there, if you want to expand beyond a small family business.

Certainly others are also doing this. And are not AGHEs, nor source from AGHEs.

 

[Alantoo]

But please, stop retreating to quoting yet again from the ancient 2015 England/Wales WGG just because it suits your argument. I'm not sure where you are going with this, or quite why.

Ha Ha!

Of course it suits my argument!

It is the current guide and is thus what you should be acknowledging rather than unnecessarily complicating the matter.

Ancient? It is barely 7 years old and refers to 21st century EU and UK legislation. Are you now saying that all 7 year and older legislation is to be ignored? Laws stand until revoked or replaced as far as I know.

But as you appear to concede that my interpretation of the 2015 WGG is correct as "it suits my argument" I will stand down, there is nothing else to argue from.

Alan

 

[Sharpie]

Ha Ha!

Of course it suits my argument!

It is the current guide and is thus what you should be acknowledging rather than unnecessarily complicating the matter.

Ancient? It is barely 7 years old and refers to 21st century EU and UK legislation. Are you now saying that all 7 year and older legislation is to be ignored? Laws stand until revoked or replaced as far as I know.

But as you appear to concede that my interpretation of the 2015 WGG is correct as "it suits my argument" I will stand down, there is nothing else to argue from.

Alan

It is only a guide. It is not legislation. Written by fallible people (aren't we all ?) who might not have a forensic grasp of fine detail.

Being moderately intelligent, when I read something in a guide, which does not seem to match my understanding I dig a little deeper to try to get to the root of the matter.

The relevant EU/UK legislation was issued in 2004 and has remained unchanged since then. This is what actually matters. Which is why both WGGs firstly cite the actual legislation, so that you may study it for yourself. Some of it can be a long read, but if you are as practiced in skim reading and summarisation, as I am (essential in my work) it's not so tedious. They are actually pretty concise.

This is nothing compared to skimming the 500 or 1000 page reports of mostly guff that the UK and EU REACH people have commissioned concerning the lead ban

As an aside, I've been digging a little deeper into what these exemptions mean You won't find the word exemption in any legislation BTW.

Best that I've come up with so far is from Best Practice guidance.





So I have been guilty of conflating the two exemptions.

As a primary producer I may sell to the consumer, or to a local retailer. Without needing to be registered as a food business. Nor having any qualifications, not even Trained Hunter. Using the Primary Producer Exemption. That's clear.

Just as I, using the Hunter Exemption, and having registered as a food business, may cut up and sell the meat myself, or to local retailers. Whilst having no formal qualifications as a butcher.

This is what I suspect @VSS is doing. And so may be unable to buy in primary produce from other hunters, unless he persuades his EHO otherwise, e.g. that he knows what he is doing when processing it, despite having no formal qualifications (at least I'm assuming not, sorry if I've got that wrong).

Butcher | Explore careers | National Careers Service might be a starting point for that.

PS. I don't think that many butchers' shops are AGHEs either.

 

[foxdropper]

It’s good to know somebody else other than myself has realised we do not need half the red tape others fall for just to put a deer into a GDHE .

 

[Robs]

Thanks to all for the information. I have been paying for waste disposal for years and never checked the legislation since starting.

 

[Monty1840]

Your moaning about having to pay to get rid of
A few heads and feet?

I have to remove all red deer gralloch from my permission because of horse riders!

Have a wild guess what that is costing every year?

£ 60 a month my guess

 

[Alantoo]

It is only a guide. It is not legislation. Written by fallible people (aren't we all ?) who might not have a forensic grasp of fine detail.

Indeed. Just as per the Best Practice and BASC guides.

A few years ago I did find and trawl through the EU and UK legislation referred to in the 2015 WGG specifically because I saw there was this discrepancy between the WGG and the various organisations’ interpretations, and what I had been told on my DSC1 course.

As far as my reading of the source legislation went the WGG represented the either “Friends and Family gifts” or “business and thus required registration”accurately. I concluded that the others suffered from wishful thinking.

Alan

 

[Leec6.5]

£ 60 a month my guess

More than that, try £30 a bin!

2 lowland red gralloch to a bin or there abouts.

Sometimes its £300 a month

 

[Monty1840]

You are shooting a lot of deer sir , does it ever get a chore?

 

[Leec6.5]

You are shooting a lot of deer sir , does it ever get a chore?

Yes it does!

Every winter is a struggle to get going but once you get the first 10 reds in the larder it all slips back into routine and off you go again!

 

[foxdropper]

 

[Leec6.5]

I

find that funny

It does become a chore When every year it seems to be that you’re the only one pulling your weight in the area, and no matter my best efforts of thacking them on sight, no mercy big or small and the numbers are not dropping it does start to grind a tad!