Democratising Deer Stalking?

[TomDeer]

Good post @caberslash.

There also seems to be some degree of general misconception about stalking, even amongst other shooters. I often find that the response to my saying I'm a deer stalker are questions about how often I go to Scotland. When I answer that I do all my stalking in East Anglia, people often seem unaware that stalkers are out across the UK. They seem to think of deer as being the Monarch of the Glen, with the price and exclusivity that may attach. It's as though the muntjac, CWD, roe,fallow, sika and lowland reds that many of us will, depending on what's on our turf, be dealing with somehow don't count as stalking.

In some respects, local stalking is quite democratic, albeit difficult to get in to, at least in terms of cost of kit (including rifle, optics, clothing and necessary paraphernalia) . There doesn't seem to be the pressure towards conspicuous consumption that formal shoots might impose. From what I've seen, the general expectation for local stalking seems to be that one should have the kit necessary to do the job competently (and know how to use it within its limitations) rather than spend a fortune to impress others. Whilst you can spend a fortune on your kit, you can get on with kit costing a fraction of the top end stuff and still bring home a carcass. A lot of coarse fishers and golfers probably spend far more on their kit.

There does however remain the fundamental difficulty of getting a start in stalking though and I don't know how one fixes that.

 

[Freeforester]

For the benefit of anyone with an eye, or aye:

XX00 DMG NFE DMU

Outline proposal to introduce a trial licenced culling scheme by approved, insured, qualified and competent local stakeholders within the XX00 postal area
Issues
Hugely costly deer management, fencing and culling programme
20% of cull met in the male season (6 months)
Largely static cull figures despite great effort and expense
Large parts of NFE not being reached/targeted by ranger force (GPS data)
Anecdotal incidence of deer numbers increasing in AB54 area despite FCS efforts (see T I video)
BUT
Presence of >10 DSC2 qualified local persons active in deer management outwith the NFE in/surrounding XX00 area, many of whom willing or interested in paying a reasonable sum for a commitment to qualify and operate under a licence-type system to assist in cull and thereby aid FCS in its objectives of protection and enhancement of both the forest and natural environment, increased cull return (modest objective of 6 deer per licence holder per tag-set issued)

Proposal
Qualifying local stakeholders/community members to undertake assessment by local WRM or other suitable FCS staff, including any training/RA required by FCS
Candidate undertakes to buy 6 tag ‘book’ from FCS @ £30 per tag – demonstrates commitment to the scheme, FCS already ‘banking’ proceeds – 1st win for FCS
Candidate communicates with WRM to indicate where/when in XX00 they intend to find/cull deer – analysis of results helpful to local WRM in identifying areas where deer are being found -2nd FCS win
Candidate responsible for transport, extraction and dealing with carcase – 3rd FCS win

Benefits to FCS
Reduced pressure on FCS ranger staff – win
Potential damage reduction – win
Enhancement to local NFE and XX00 environment – win
Potentially up to 10% increase in overall cull return figure in XX00 - big win
Socially inclusive and beneficial private-public-partnership – win
Income gained for little cost to existing regime and workload – win
Part of wider local forest community management partnership scheme - win
Eyes and ears on the ground, intelligence and information communicated re deer movements, poaching deterrent, and ‘picture-building’ for FCS locally - win
Increased data filed for cull returns, at no expense to FCS - win
Increased overall culling effort whilst income generating for FCS - win
Team-building and enhanced collaboration with FCS Ranger staff –win

Potential Downsides
Based upon TRUST, but participating licence holders have demonstrated willingness to help, capability, suitability and financial commitment to help – any ‘bad apple’ could be identified, e.g. by rotation of (Licence Holder) LH with other LH operating in a distinct area, so are co-mentored – one transgresses, both lose, but all liable to rule of Law in any event
Risk of abuse – could be monitored (all must log in with FCS/WRM prior to entering forest, under pain of forfeiture of licence (everyone has too much to lose, I would suggest)
Taking more deer than licenced to remove – licence holder liable to spot check in the forest by any FCS staff member at any time – forfeiture of licence (as above, though ironically, fewer deer damaging NFE!)
Misuse of forest tracks – forfeiture of licence (as above), vehicles to be issued with car permit sticker and logged on FCS authorised vehicle database

Operational Feasibility
LHs’ could opt to operate in non/less vulnerable/less visitedforest area/s, or equally, areas of vulnerability – in either scenario reduction in deer number is welcome; could potentially collaborate with FCS ranger staff to assist in cull effort, though any carcase tagged to be the ‘reward’ for effort and costs incurred by the LH
Could (if initial findings are positive) be extended to cover/operate in periods of non-ranger operation (e.g. Friday to Sunday inclusive, ranger holiday, sick- or course leave)
LH responsible for own safety and that of other forest users,but risk assessment made and LW protocol followed, as in the case of permissions/leases, suggest use of ops calendar to log all outings in advance
Payment of book/s of 6 licence tags made in advance
LH responsible for ensuring any culled animal is immediately tagged prior to removal, as an aid to any FCS staff spot check, as if no tag carried, unauthorised access presumed – forfeiture of licence
All unused tags returnable to FCS in event of not being logged/used in the year period of validity
LHs’ operate in pairs if appropriate, offering assistance to each other for extraction as necessary
Extraction equipment and tracking dog/s in handwith/responsibility of LH’s
Month by month review of performance, and any issues arising

Change or modify to suit, nothing set in stone, only an example of a possible basis for OP's desire.

The Netherlands have a live cull record database.
The Netherlands is the most densely populated Country in Europe
Scotland is one of the least, certainly outwith the central belt.


Statistics are third best to lies and damned lies, I'm sure I once read...

Where there's a will, there's a way.

By the way, I view this as an interesting but ultimately futile exercise, given the encumbent bunker-blinkery, but tbh the current perpetual muddle ensures the continued expansion of deer numbers in many areas, whether measured by statistics or otherwise.

 

[User00025]

I know it's not a popular view but I have some great friends both in FLS and in the contracting business. Those rangers and contractors work bl00dy hard for their wages.

Now, Cwis....

The Rangers yes very much so, I also count one or two as friends. The organisation o/a I class as dubious if not a co.plete waste of money. Sorry my friend but no fan.
Now our Cwis is a clever fellow. He's in it for the bread.

 

[Freeforester]

I agree with most of sliders post.

Really can't see it being vaible, when u speak to lease holders it's often themselves shooting much of the cull.

FF a good reply but I'd say ur reply actually backs sliders point in some aspects.
U admit it self user 1 of only a few exceeding culls.
Then u state at the end Rowan where recovering by the end of ur lease, does that not prove wot u were doing was working shooting around the cull figure??

I don't think there is any doubt roe will browse on SS it will be a last resort thou.

While I do think UK shooters as generally fairly safe, some places really are just hooching with folk nowadays.
Some of the stories I hear from mates in NZ would out u off hunting full stop, esp during the roar.
Best practice over there isto tie a high Viz to antlers and carry head upside down as hunters do shoot at noises/movements in bushes esp if some antlers sticking above them.

I exceeded the cull target I was set, where most of the professionals did not attain theirs, as I was told, hardly surprising give the effort involved and prevailaing conditions in that winter, but see later post, modest gains are more attainable I'd like to think all would agree.

JCS: might a more modest set target be of value in being reached? It would appear that every deer culled within the NFE is regarded as a 'win' - if a willing candidate was happy to commit to culling six animals from within a designated area and paying for the privilege, if he shot less than six, he loses a proportion of the maximum value of his permit, the state loses what?

 

[The deer man]

Simply, there is no control in the UK.

Getting a rifle or a shotgun in the UK requires no training or certified competence. We are one of only two countries in Europe where this is still possible, land and permission is all you need and for shotguns it's still a right to own.

There is no control over numbers of deer shot in the UK. There is no enforcement of the law over illegal shooting. There is little professional guidance from the likes of the once upon a time 'Deer Initiative' who's only advise was "we must shoot more deer" which also included shooting them at night and out of season.

Then there are the so called professional deer managers. You know the people who've fast tracked courses, got some pieces of paper, pretend they know it all and shoot everything that moves - into their pocket! Also keeping everyone else out under the pretense that they don't enjoy what they do, it's their job and the only correct way to manage deer. Sadly this is becoming how some government agencies, advisors and antis are seeing it, a means to an end to ban all recreational shooting.

There's so much more but what it all adds up to as usual is the shooting community showing itself to be selfish, disorganised and as splintered as it ever was. Sorting some of these problems out might be a start for a more educated, inclusive and united future for all disciplines of shooting.

Whilst i dont want to see stalking as a closed door to new comers I think people need to realise exactly what responsabilty they have when they do start stalking not only from a saftey point of view but from a managment point of view aswell.
Over the last decade the Roe deer around me have taken a total kicking from all these so called "stalkers" who buy themselves a rifle with no prior knowledge of shooting or the countryside and embark on a indiscriminate killing spree under the smoke screen of a dsc1 and some concocted rubbish about deer being over populated causing habitat damage and rtc's. Then after about 3 years give or take theve killed just about every deer on there ground get board sell there guns and move onto there next whim.
Now I understand not every new stalker is like this but you can understand why some people do become a little gaurded over what they have and do.

 

[Mick9abf]

My take on guided stalks in the UK seems to be someone gets the shooting rights to control the deer on land then seeks out paying clients to come and do the work for him while he tags along to make it all seem special. I suppose it is a way of adding to the income potential on top of just shooting them oneself & selling the meat into the game dealers. Turns it from a hobby into a job.

It’s no different really than most places in Europe (driven hunting aside), in respect of a guide or representative accompanying a paying guest and all boils down to land ownership, land management choices and controlling who has access to it with a firearm (I think of it as a safety blanket, which appears to work and is reflected in the small amount of negligence reported - I won’t call it an accident, it is what it is).

Yes some stalking is sold as a ‘leisure pursuit’ as the business and money brought in supports a lot of these rural areas.

However that same area may do all the serious number culling themselves as guests can quite frankly be more of a hinderance when it comes to meeting targets.

Your assuming that all ‘stalkers’ have a decent level of competence which alas is the major flaw - I’m sure we’ve all experienced some ‘Qualified Stalkers’ (I’m not starting the DSC1 competency debate) who are ‘not that safe in reality’ (I’m being diplomatic), that couldn’t find their own bum in the toilet and who’s lardering skills look like they came with instructions from Freddie Kruger.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Simply, there is no control in the UK.

Getting a rifle or a shotgun in the UK requires no training or certified competence. We are one of only two countries in Europe where this is still possible, land and permission is all you need and for shotguns it's still a right to own.

There is no control over numbers of deer shot in the UK. There is no enforcement of the law over illegal shooting. There is little professional guidance from the likes of the once upon a time 'Deer Initiative' who's only advise was "we must shoot more deer" which also included shooting them at night and out of season.

Then there are the so called professional deer managers. You know the people who've fast tracked courses, got some pieces of paper, pretend they know it all and shoot everything that moves - into their pocket! Also keeping everyone else out under the pretense that they don't enjoy what they do, it's their job and the only correct way to manage deer. Sadly this is becoming how some government agencies, advisors and antis are seeing it, a means to an end to ban all recreational shooting.

There's so much more but what it all adds up to as usual is the shooting community showing itself to be selfish, disorganised and as splintered as it ever was. Sorting some of these problems out might be a start for a more educated, inclusive and united future for all disciplines of shooting.

Have a read of The management of wild deer in Scotland: Deer Working Group report - gov.scot Regards JCS

 

[Roestalker39]

QUOTE="CarlW, post: 1768932, member: 17959"]
I know it's not a popular view but I have some great friends both in FLS and in the contracting business. Those rangers and contractors work bl00dy hard for their wages.

Now, Cwis....
[/QUOTE]
Cmon now Carl I know their “ lamp arm “ can become fatigued but surely it’s not that bad

 

[CarlW]

QUOTE="CarlW, post: 1768932, member: 17959"]
I know it's not a popular view but I have some great friends both in FLS and in the contracting business. Those rangers and contractors work bl00dy hard for their wages.

Now, Cwis....

Cmon now Carl I know their “ lamp arm “ can become fatigued but surely it’s not that bad
[/QUOTE]

You are a bad man.

 

[bogtrotter]

The Rangers yes very much so, I also count one or two as friends. The organisation o/a I class as dubious if not a co.plete waste of money. Sorry my friend but no fan.
Now our Cwis is a clever fellow. He's in it for the bread.

Pretty much mirrors my thoughts.

 

[foxdropper]

Might be time to deport a few million to Oz with all that space .
I’ll make as start on the list ASAP .

 

[Klenchblaize]

The Scottish red deer's fall from grace saddens me greatly. It has gone from being on a shortbread tin to being on a dartboard almost overnight.

The big problem for the deer in Scotland is that it symbolises success, and positivity, and affluence, and old money, and leisure, and - to some extremists - Englishness.

None of these is compatible with an envy-based political philosophy which - despite leading a country which brought 'The Wealth of Nations' to the world - is pursuing a playbook that might as well be entitled 'In Pursuit of Poverty'. The red deer is to the SNP what the Afrikaans language is to the EFF.

Ordinary, sensible Scottish people (which is most of them) really need to get a grip and take your country back from these morons before they destroy it completely.

On the subject of democratising deerstalking, at some point, (as @Freeforester keeps agitating for) FLS needs to at least enter into a debate about using the public's land differently. 'It wouldn't work here: America is different' is not a sufficiently defensible view.

Kind regards,

Carl

I LIKE that big time Mr. W as you sure as hell have nailed it and the wee Sturgeon in one post!

Not read every post in this thread so apologies if the following is off message:

There's a certain irony in the reality - for me at least - that it was Forestry Commission Scotland who without question democratised deerstalking and by way of the now terminated Ranger accompanied permit stalking system. How could it not be when so affordable and providing the oppertunity for anyone with an FAC to experience everything Highland stalking has to offer bar a pony, and in some of the most spectacular Scottish scenery you could wish for.

Very sad this is no longer available and as something I was fortunate to be involved in promoting, albeit in a very limited way, back in the 90's.

K

 

[CarlW]

I LIKE that big time Mr. W as you sure as hell have nailed it and the wee Sturgeon in one post!

Not read every post in this thread so apologies if the following is off message:

There's a certain irony in the reality - for me at least - that it was Forestry Commission Scotland who without question democratised deerstalking and by way of the now terminated Ranger accompanied permit stalking system. How could it not be when so affordable and providing the oppertunity for anyone with an FAC to experience everything Highland stalking has to offer bar a pony, and in some of the most spectacular Scottish scenery you could wish for.

Very sad this is no longer available and as something I was fortunate to be involved in promoting, albeit in a very limited way, back in the 90's.

K

I agree: what better education could one have than spending time stalking with an FCS/FLS ranger?

 

[The deer man]

Have a read of The management of wild deer in Scotland: Deer Working Group report - gov.scot Regards JCS

My God, I guess someone was payed to write that, a report on a report that no doubt will culminate in another report, very tedious and repetitive!

 

[countrryboy]

FF good post earlier, but is wot u descriibe pretty much just a syndicate except limited to locals ( something I would definitely agree with)
At 30 quid a tag ur cheap, really quite rare to see a stalking syndicate under 100 quid a roe, be seen some advertised on here at over 200to 300 albeit for red.
Must admit some of the syndicate prices on here make guided stalking look cheap in my opinion, esp considering the overheads the guides have.

Been a while since been in a FC syndicate, but the very early 1s u had to be at the game at certain times so ranger could check up on u. ( That's was in days when u had to carry a compass and survival gear on u and he would check)
Don't think that was the case on later 1s

Opening areas up esp to more than u would expect in a normal syndicate, would not be great for deer management.
Even with deer syndicates ( and to be fair with modern rangers) there no longer will be an awful lot of deer selection, the full time boys are just under so much pressure for numbers.
And while not the same pressure on syndicates, most rifles will shoot anything they see on sight either to justify there desiel or for fear the next member won't be so conservation minded.
I've been on odd unaccompanied stalking on open hill and it's not good, folk shooting at everything, long ranges etc

I can mind 2 or 3 decades ago when there was 2 or 3 times the ammount of rangers in those days they took clients out and also was not in usual to leave stand bucks etc, which has a brucey bonus off knowing where decent bucks are for when the clients do come out.
I doubt modern rangers would have the time nowadays to take clients out esp not on females.


As an aside there is always a lot off coments about lamping etc, in Scotland all forestry management companies use them heavily, possibly to heavily.
But to be honest in southern Scot and esp on Roe ground I really don't think it makes any difference, with roe being territorial and usually in small family groups.
Not as easy as I'd think, not shooting more deer off the ground just doing it with less men.

I do think there is a big issue with ur upland transitory reds thou, really not fair boys hammering reds when they move into forest ground for shelter n bad weather.
I mind I think 6P ( blast from past) said something I thought was quite good, out off season reds stags should pay a different far lower ammount than a hind.
So a lot more work for a heavy beast that's worth less than a lighter hind.
Hopefully contractors would then focus on hinds which might give nieghbouring estates a favour.
But a do appreciate stags can bore score and damage even adult trees, althou the log they damage used to be the prime cut/profit n trees nowadays u can hardly give away the bottom off a tree yet the crap at top is where the demand is ( biomass, chip, pulp and pallet) seems back to front to me

This modern fashion for regenning the Caledonian pine forest esp without fences is also a big issue.
When u have the like of NTS and JMT deer policies will be far harsher than any forestry company.
There is some massive issues facing hill red deer mainly to do with forestry which will only get worse as more areas go under the plough then u add in the illusive sika which seem to thrive in the woods and are so bloody secretive.

 

[treps]

My experience is similar to the one described by the OP @caberslash
I do quite a bit of red deer and boar in the continent where, arguably, it is also a closed circle with a focus on community and wildlife management. Is it less driven by money? Massive generalisation but with the exceptions of big cities, I would say yes.
I have been trying to stalk regularly in the UK with limited success. I've had great outings (all paid for) in the southeast and Scotland; not many but a few. All very enjoyable but I felt the focus was really on getting the animal which again is fine. However, I also yearn to experience outings where the focus is on the outing and stalking itself. Working hard and coming empty handed does not bother me. I have yet to find opportunities to do so in the southeast. Everyone I have met has been very helpful but somehow regular outings for the sake of going out stalking are eluding me. Is it an industry or a sport? One man's observation.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

In a small overpopulated country I would say it"s gone in the direction of industry. There are so many white van men chasing for peoples money claiming to be craftsmen as manufacturing has reverted towards a cottage industry, the same in stalking IMO.

 

[sikamalc]

My experience is similar to the one described by the OP @caberslash
I do quite a bit of red deer and boar in the continent where, arguably, it is also a closed circle with a focus on community and wildlife management. Is it less driven by money? Massive generalisation but with the exceptions of big cities, I would say yes.
I have been trying to stalk regularly in the UK with limited success. I've had great outings (all paid for) in the southeast and Scotland; not many but a few. All very enjoyable but I felt the focus was really on getting the animal which again is fine. However, I also yearn to experience outings where the focus is on the outing and stalking itself. Working hard and coming empty handed does not bother me. I have yet to find opportunities to do so in the southeast. Everyone I have met has been very helpful but somehow regular outings for the sake of going out stalking are eluding me. Is it an industry or a sport? One man's observation.

Try stalking Sika in the rut in the highlands of Scotland, that will test your patience.

 

[User00040]

My experience is similar to the one described by the OP @caberslash
I do quite a bit of red deer and boar in the continent where, arguably, it is also a closed circle with a focus on community and wildlife management. Is it less driven by money? Massive generalisation but with the exceptions of big cities, I would say yes.
I have been trying to stalk regularly in the UK with limited success. I've had great outings (all paid for) in the southeast and Scotland; not many but a few. All very enjoyable but I felt the focus was really on getting the animal which again is fine. However, I also yearn to experience outings where the focus is on the outing and stalking itself. Working hard and coming empty handed does not bother me. I have yet to find opportunities to do so in the southeast. Everyone I have met has been very helpful but somehow regular outings for the sake of going out stalking are eluding me. Is it an industry or a sport? One man's observation.

Nail on the head, not many places in the UK where you can walk 20+KM in a day to go deer hunting, in the true sense of the word.

They could be almost anywhere in the hunting area, a herd might be moving due to the wind, weather or hiding somewhere in the terrain. Climbing up a rocky outcrop to find a good glassing point and spotting an animal in the far distance, that is when the stalk begins. A few such places still exist in Scotland but access is very difficult (not just from a financial standpoint), not to mention the fact that the weather will more often than not do exactly the opposite of what you want/the forecast says.

It's hard to put the point across without touching some nerves, but I won't ever let myself sit in an Argo and be driven to a predetermined point then have a 500m 'stalk' to circle round and shoot a feeder stag.

I'll never forget my first stag, shot on the last day of the season on a glorious sunny day overlooking the glen. The trophy itself doesn't matter (I still made him into a long nose shield mount) but the experience and memories it brings back does.

 

[GlasgowSouth]

Really interesting read this thread and lots of varied opinions and advice.

I find myself in a similar situation to the OP as I've some experience of stalking and beating when I was younger, but fell away from it and now keen to pick it up again. I had a similar experience to some when I asked if I could tag along via my old work, but was more or less told it was a closed shop and tough luck.

Then I became aware of this forum and made my introduction and have been dropping in and out since. Only managed to get out once last year with a family friend and was meant to be getting out more but getting married, honeymoon and now covid has kiboshed that.

As far as I see it, I'm hoping to get out and shadow as much as possible. Then go for DSC1. I'm hoping by this point I can make some enquires through a family friend and work to get permissions and take up the Arran BASC stalking scheme and if all goes well apply for a FAC.

So in summary. I see myself with a few hurdles to navigate as time, money and some good fortune allow. As I would very much see this as recreational hobby for myself as like the idea of getting out in the country, staying fit and ethically sourcing my meat in the future.