DMQ level 1 and 2 changes

I had seven successful witnessed stalks to make the cut,after a rather hesitant start on L2, with a lot of supporting evidence to back it up from previous tries , ...........it's not all that cut & dried, if you are not ready for it don't push it, the final breakthrough for me was a request from my final AW stalker / witness, was to go from the shot deer I was presented with, (shot by another visitor)through initial visual inspection, to gralloch with examinations of glands etc etc, his write up mentioned my "Professional" demonstration of the drop tongue method during exposure of retro pharyngeal glands.
Any reduction from three stalks to one, is in my view a backward step.
 
Does this mean that if my course is booked for the 9th April 2021, then it no longer covers the trained hunter part therefore being unable to sell the game dealer?
 
Does this mean that if my course is booked for the 9th April 2021, then it no longer covers the trained hunter part therefore being unable to sell the game dealer?
No because it’s already booked only Courses booked after 1st of April will be affected so if someone booked on your course on the 2nd of April you’d be ok they wouldn’t.
 
This reminds me of my motorcycle test, "Go once round the block".

Once knew a girl who had passed her driving test in PNG.

1614836217482.webp

Her test consisted of driving forward in a straight line for 100m and then reversing for 100m. She passed.

She later exchanged her PNG D/L for a full UK D/L.

She is out on the UK's roads now...
 
Now I'm not normally one to slate folks getting a qualification in something should they wish but........

So because the dmq which these bodies scratched their heads together to invent doesn't cover sufficiently the relevant target areas in enough detail "surely they should have thought this at the concept stage" then they're stating that you need another qualification to now reach this goal...
Sorry but just get there act together and supply the necessary in the level one instead of year upon year cutting the amount of days required to sit it....
Shambles absolute shambles..
Most of the deer stalking "rules and regs" re training came out of the golden ticket booth from
the Crystal Maze.

 
So if you hold a DSC Level 2 on the older rules :old:Does that say then that you are grade 1 Gold star :hind::hind::hind:DSC2 holder not a DSC2 grade 2 Silver star Holder :hind::stir::tiphat:
 
I think part of the reason for a change was persons could pass level 1 and gain a trained hunter cert without actually performing any inspections and or grallochs them selves.
Made a mockery of it to be honest.
It makes a mockery of Level 2 in my opinion Steve. There is NO WAY that undertaking one deer on a Level 2 stalk is anyone experienced enough in my opinion. The fact, for instance that taking one Muntjac on a Level 2 would be considered good enough is a joke in my book. The extraction from a larger species, such as a large Red or Fallow buck, verses a Muntjac, in itself is a world apart.
I have had one or two taking a Level 2 that are no where near ready. Most are thankful of advice, one I had thought he knew it all, and did not have a clue. Level 2 should be based on good solid field experience, coupled with what you learnt on your Level 1 and time in the field, building up experience.
Many have had no experience of a wounded deer. This is part of Level 2 is vital. There is no doubt that sometime soon we all loose a deer, or wound one. Knowing what to look for and the correct action to take comes down to experience, and is part of the questioning on Level 2.

I am always amazed at how many AW's there are, but many have NEVER taken anyone for a Level 2 stalk. Seems to me many want it for the kudos maybe? I dont know, and frankly dont really care. But this whole Level 2 business is now turning into something I feel is now becoming worthless, and proves very little. One wonders HOW MUCH experience some of those running it really have?
 
Once knew a girl who had passed her driving test in PNG.

View attachment 196460

Her test consisted of driving forward in a straight line for 100m and then reversing for 100m. She passed.

She later exchanged her PNG D/L for a full UK D/L.

She is out on the UK's roads now...
I bet that she's still a better driver than my MIL who's 3 year old car body work looks like a golf ball! All dents from other people hitting her! :fib:
 
Once knew a girl who had passed her driving test in PNG.

View attachment 196460

Her test consisted of driving forward in a straight line for 100m and then reversing for 100m. She passed.

She later exchanged her PNG D/L for a full UK D/L.

She is out on the UK's roads now...
My father in law who died just before Christmas, took his driving test in Bangor north Wales. He was proud of the fact that the traffic was very busy that day as people had come out just to see and experience the first set of traffic lights installed in the city in the 1950s.
He wasn't the best of driver's and when visiting us would complain about all the other drivers shaking their arms at him as he negotiated roundabouts in our local town which is renowned for the number of roundabouts.
 
I have to say that I respectfully disagree with some of what I read above.

In fact I expect my comments below might put the cat amongst the pigeons, but so be it! Discussion and debate is always healthy. On that basis.......

There are plenty of stalkers out there who have never, and indeed may never, stalk red or sika. Of course it is a different type of stalking, but I can't see why every DSC2 Candidate should be required to show competency in stalking a red on the Hill, for example. Similarly there are plenty of stalkers who may never see a live muntjac, so I'm not sure of the value of insisting on a DSC2 Candidate having to stalk one.

I know from many years experience that getting a red off the Hill is different to carrying out a muntjac, but to be honest if I was a Candidate in the South of England and 99.9% of my stalking happened to be for roe and muntjac, why would - or should - I care? Similarly if I lived in Scotland and stalk red and sika, why should I have to demonstrate that I can also cull a muntjac? Given that DSC2 is there purely to enable Candidates to "demonstrate their knowledge and competence in legally, safely and humanely culling deer and dealing with carcasses hygienically" I personally can't see any reason to over-complicate it by introducing some higher bar - notional or otherwise - based on species or other criteria.

Turning to the number of stalks, if you're competent with one stalk and you can successfully demonstrate you meet the criteria, why should that not be good enough? The objections seem to be along the lines of "but with just one stalk a Candidate won't have experienced everything that could happen when you stalk deer". Candidates will NEVER experience everything that could happen when you stalk deer!

We don't have to take our driving test three times to show we are competent. If it turns out you're not competent and can't meet the standard, go away, practice some more, and take the driving test again. Why should DSC2 be different? Indeed why is three stalks somehow now held up as being the "correct" number? If we think about the difference in stalking, why not six - one per UK species?

Personally I can't see why DSC2 would be better as somehow being positioned as the UK equivalent of bagging "the Big Five". Nor do I see any appetite in introducing various grades of DSC2, as that is surely the alternative? So a bit like a moped, motorcycle, car and HGV license - a Candidate would have to qualify for region-specific, species-specific, or stalking-specific levels of DSC2. Sounds expensive, and hardly a way forwards IMHO.

With regards to training and experience, the latest newsletter from DMQ states that:

"DMQ anticipates that the change will lead to more scrutiny of the candidate by the witness which may result in a number of pre-assessment stalks where guidance can be freely given to prepare the candidate for the qualification. Witnesses play an important role here and DMQ will provide strong support for such initial scrutiny of the candidate, particularly where the witness is not confident the individual is ready for final assessment and recommends preassessment stalks. With this in mind, stronger guidance to candidates wishing to undertake the qualification is to be drafted which will emphasise the need for them to adequately prepare themselves through training and tuition prior to their assessment ideally with their chosen witness."

Isn't that exactly what is being asked for above? If the Candidate demonstrates competence, sign off their one ICR. If they don't, don't. If you think they need more experience first, tell them. The problem with the old model was not just the inconsistency of the Candidates, but also the inconsistency across AW's, particularly with regards to the level of questioning. Some were great, some were not. So I can see how concentrating the questioning with the Assessors rather than the AW's now helps in that regard, as all Candidates get questioned the same way.

Most objections I read on social media from AW's seem to be along the lines of "with three Witnessed stalks we could train Candidates in the right way (i.e. our way) of doing things, now we can't". But that was never the intention of the Witnessed stalks! A Witnessed stalk is there to provide an objective way to observe and record competence, end of. One stalk should do just fine.

So having looked at the new guidance objectively, I don't see that the changes cheapen DSC2. Rather I see that they are designed to enable consistency, scalability and affordability. If I was a Candidate again, I might quite like that.

For any AW out there that doesn't like the changes, DMQ sent out a Voluntary Retirement Form along with the recent changes. I very much doubt that was a coincidence. The changes are here, and I don't anticipate they will be reversed. So AW's can either adapt to the new changes and make them work, or print out that form, complete and sign it, and send it back to DMQ. No-one is forced into being an AW.
 
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As an AW I can honestly say that all of the dsc2 candidates I have witnessed over the years would have comfortably passed using the new one stalk/deer system.
Its really up to the candidates to ensure they have sufficient knowledge and experience before registering for the dsc2.
This is the new way and we must embrace it and prepare for an increase in uptake of the award.
HF
 
I have to say that I respectfully disagree with some of what I read above.

In fact I expect my comments below might put the cat amongst the pigeons, but so be it! Discussion and debate is always healthy. On that basis.......

There are plenty of stalkers out there who have never, and indeed may never, stalk red or sika. Of course it is a different type of stalking, but I can't see why every DSC2 Candidate should be required to show competency in stalking a red on the Hill, for example. Similarly there are plenty of stalkers who may never see a live muntjac, so I'm not sure of the value of insisting on a DSC2 Candidate having to stalk one.

I know from many years experience that getting a red off the Hill is different to carrying out a muntjac, but to be honest if I was a Candidate in the South of England and 99.9% of my stalking happened to be for roe and muntjac, why would - or should - I care? Similarly if I lived in Scotland and stalk red and sika, why should I have to demonstrate that I can also cull a muntjac? Given that DSC2 is there purely to enable Candidates to "demonstrate their knowledge and competence in legally, safely and humanely culling deer and dealing with carcasses hygienically" I personally can't see any reason to over-complicate it by introducing some higher bar - notional or otherwise - based on species or other criteria.

Turning to the number of stalks, if you're competent with one stalk and you can successfully demonstrate you meet the criteria, why should that not be good enough? The objections seem to be along the lines of "but with just one stalk a Candidate won't have experienced everything that could happen when you stalk deer". Candidates will NEVER experience everything that could happen when you stalk deer!

We don't have to take our driving test three times to show we are competent. If it turns out you're not competent and can't meet the standard, go away, practice some more, and take the driving test again. Why should DSC2 be different? Indeed why is three stalks somehow now held up as being the "correct" number? If we think about the difference in stalking, why not six - one per UK species?

Personally I can't see why DSC2 would be better as somehow being positioned as the UK equivalent of bagging "the Big Five". Nor do I see any appetite in introducing various grades of DSC2, as that is surely the alternative? So a bit like a moped, motorcycle, car and HGV license - a Candidate would have to qualify for region-specific, species-specific, or stalking-specific levels of DSC2. Sounds expensive, and hardly a way forwards IMHO.

With regards to training and experience, the latest newsletter from DMQ states that:

"DMQ anticipates that the change will lead to more scrutiny of the candidate by the witness which may result in a number of pre-assessment stalks where guidance can be freely given to prepare the candidate for the qualification. Witnesses play an important role here and DMQ will provide strong support for such initial scrutiny of the candidate, particularly where the witness is not confident the individual is ready for final assessment and recommends preassessment stalks. With this in mind, stronger guidance to candidates wishing to undertake the qualification is to be drafted which will emphasise the need for them to adequately prepare themselves through training and tuition prior to their assessment ideally with their chosen witness."

Isn't that exactly what is being asked for above? If the Candidate demonstrates competence, sign off their one ICR. If they don't, don't. If you think they need more experience first, tell them. The problem with the old model was not just the inconsistency of the Candidates, but also the inconsistency across AW's, particularly with regards to the level of questioning. Some were great, some were not. So I can see how concentrating the questioning with the Assessors rather than the AW's now helps in that regard, as all Candidates get questioned the same way.

Most objections I read on social media from AW's seem to be along the lines of "with three Witnessed stalks we could train Candidates in the right way (i.e. our way) of doing things, now we can't". But that was never the intention of the Witnessed stalks! A Witnessed stalk is there to provide an objective way to observe and record competence, end of. One stalk should do just fine.

So having looked at the new guidance objectively, I don't see that the changes cheapen DSC2. Rather I see that they are designed to enable consistency, scalability and affordability. If I was a Candidate again, I might quite like that.

For any AW out there that doesn't like the changes, DMQ sent out a Voluntary Retirement Form along with the recent changes. I very much doubt that was a coincidence. The changes are here, and I don't anticipate they will be reversed. So AW's can either adapt to the new changes and make them work, or print out that form, complete and sign it, and send it back to DMQ. No-one is forced into being an AW.
You could not have explained it better an AW is there to witness not train.
It is for the assessors to question the candidate.
1 ICR on any species IMO is fine
 
I note DMQ latest statement and anology with a driving test.

Well my driving test was many moons ago, I was observed negotiating junctions traffic's lights etc on numerous occasions over a short drive of perhaps 1/2 hour. DMQ are correct in that I did 1x test, but apart from the emergency stop I was assessed on multiple occasions at different junctions.
 
It may have something to do with 29000 people having DSC1 and only 5500 having DSC2 So they are not making enough money from DSC2
That will be exactly what it is about the money. And who is running DMQ BASC surprised NO.
 
Strange thing is that they have been listed as a dormant company for years, so do not have to file accounts. So if there are no significant transactions, where does all the money go ?
 
What money, they are a not for profit organisation. This is what their website says-

About Us

Deer Management Qualifications (DMQ) is a not for profit company, limited by guarantee, which maintains the Deer Stalking Certificate (DSC) standard, quality assures the assessment process, and administers the awards.

The aim of the standard and related assessments is to enable candidates to demonstrate their understanding of basic deer management principles. DMQ’s role is to develop and maintain a progressive approach to deer management standards and assessment, linked to recognised current National Standards. DMQ is supported in this by a number of organisations listed separately on this website.

Our Quality Assurance and Development Group maintains and updates the DSC1 and DSC2 standards and assessment procedures, and assures, through external verification, the consistency and validity of assessment and internal verification processes.

Administration support for DMQ is provided by the British Association of Shooting and Conservation (BASC) at Marford Mill


I believe that at one time way back when it was transitioning from the Woodland Stalkers Certificate someone tried to profit from it by setting up a limited company and claiming copyright on all the training materials, as a result a new set up was necessary. So this may explain the dormant company.
I doubt very much if any profits are actually made by DMQ but if they are they would be required to reinvest them.
 
It may have something to do with 29000 people having DSC1 and only 5500 having DSC2 So they are not making enough money from DSC2

I am afraid that is the conclusion I draw.

For what it's worth, I have the DSCII and completed in @ 2006. It took me over two years to complete, (you only had three years from the moment they cashed your cheque), booking weeks at a time in Scotland on both Stags & Hinds. It was a mission.

I worked really hard for it. I was not a "novice" but still had to toe the line in front of a witness.

In my life it just so happens that I have picked up a few paper qualifications for both professional and personal stuff.

I do not exaggerate when I say, I am most proud of the DSCII. I would hate to see it devalued and the "new" version strikes me as doing exactly that.

However, times move on and I get that.

That said; I know what I did to get mine and I know what it means to me.
 
I am afraid that is the conclusion I draw.

For what it's worth, I have the DSCII and completed in @ 2006. It took me over two years to complete, (you only had three years from the moment they cashed your cheque), booking weeks at a time in Scotland on both Stags & Hinds. It was a mission.

I worked really hard for it. I was not a "novice" but still had to toe the line in front of a witness.

In my life it just so happens that I have picked up a few paper qualifications for both professional and personal stuff.

I do not exaggerate when I say, I am most proud of the DSCII. I would hate to see it devalued and the "new" version strikes me as doing exactly that.

However, times move on and I get that.

That said; I know what I did to get mine and I know what it means to me.
I agree with you on this is will under devalue the level 2 qualification. And the only thing I can see is a rush to take level 2 which is why they have changed it. Did my level 2 with three different witnesses and on three different species of deer.
 
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