DMQ to charge AW's

[sikamalc]

He's back there then. By gosh talk about the Galloping Major this one really does get about a bit.

Nothing suprises me anymore in the deer stalking world. About 2 years back I had a candidate who was going through Barony College. He took a Fallow doe with me for his last ICR whilst I stood about 25yds back and watched him. The Verifier threw it back as I was not standing holding the candidates hand, which is B'''''CKS.
Guess what the verifier had just got the job and was a tax inspector before getting the job as a verifier for DMQ.
I know one or two Assessors as well who are not even full time professional stalkers, driving instructors, ex police officers etc seems to be the norm. Trouble is we seem to have so called experts running a lot of this who are not full time deer stalkers, but yet seem to be in a position where they get jobs in deer stalking.

Laughable really, still nothing from the DMQ panel...……………………………….. what a surprise. NOT. Perhaps they are all too busy managing deer to bother LOL.

 

[baguio]

Nothing suprises me anymore in the deer stalking world. About 2 years back I had a candidate who was going through Barony College. He took a Fallow doe with me for his last ICR whilst I stood about 25yds back and watched him. The Verifier threw it back as I was not standing holding the candidates hand, which is B'''''CKS.
Guess what the verifier had just got the job and was a tax inspector before getting the job as a verifier for DMQ.
I know one or two Assessors as well who are not even full time professional stalkers, driving instructors, ex police officers etc seems to be the norm. Trouble is we seem to have so called experts running a lot of this who are not full time deer stalkers, but yet seem to be in a position where they get jobs in deer stalking.

Laughable really, still nothing from the DMQ panel...……………………………….. what a surprise. NOT. Perhaps they are all too busy managing deer to bother LOL.

I have heard of an almost identical sinario, Malc. The assessor was also happy with it but the verifier wasn't. The verifier sent it back to the assessor who sent it straight back again and so it went on until the candidate was given his award and the verifier was sacked. If you know that you're correct then stand by your convictions.

 

[Tarquinius]

Just another money making scheme. The AW’s that don’t charge are unlikely to continue doing so now which is a huge shame.

 

[jimbo1984]

Just another money making scheme. The AW’s that don’t charge are unlikely to continue doing so now which is a huge shame.

It's all a money making scheme

 

[Overlay]

As it is at the moment BASC membership is mandatory ( correct me if I’m wrong) for an AW so there has always been a “charge” to an AW

That charge is now going to increase via the DMQ, whether it can be re Imbursed via a cost or charge to a L2 stalker is on the cards, but what about all the L1 guidance and L2 prep and stalking related help AW’s provide to help stalkers get to the required standard. - this is where it breaks down unfortunately,

There is a lot of good advice, help and guidance given freely which in the case of an AW having to pay, that will effectively throw that out of the window and any progress stalkers have had to move forward will be greatly reduced

I hope that common sense prevails with this whole turnout

In the event AW’s say enough is enough and through in the towel, effectively greatly reducing the help and guidance to stalkers, the worrying thing is membership to the BASC and The BDS which like it or not is all stalkers have as a face for representation in this quickly changing country regarding field sports, membership numbers could drastically fall and we are left with more decisions and loss of income in a nutshell a disaster


Overall we could see a drop in really valuable membership numbers for BASC and BDS and income, plus the cost of stalkers wishing to advance on stalking procedures, that cost would greatly rise, pushing L2 out of reach and or worse make the L2 Route a no - go course of training

I personally hope there is no hidden agenda, and stalkers continue to support the BASC and BDS, both of these need to increase membership and work towards supporting field sports as a whole, it will be a very sad day for deer stalking if this all falls apart at the seams, it would perhaps be better to increase BASC membership by a £1.00 to cover additional costs. ????? Perhaps.

Phil

 

[User00025]

As it is at the moment BASC membership is mandatory ( correct me if I’m wrong) for an AW so there has always been a “charge” to an AW

That charge is now going to increase via the DMQ, whether it can be re Imbursed via a cost or charge to a L2 stalker is on the cards, but what about all the L1 guidance and L2 prep and stalking related help AW’s provide to help stalkers get to the required standard. - this is where it breaks down unfortunately,

There is a lot of good advice, help and guidance given freely which in the case of an AW having to pay, that will effectively throw that out of the window and any progress stalkers have had to move forward will be greatly reduced

I hope that common sense prevails with this whole turnout

In the event AW’s say enough is enough and through in the towel, effectively greatly reducing the help and guidance to stalkers, the worrying thing is membership to the BASC and The BDS which like it or not is all stalkers have as a face for representation in this quickly changing country regarding field sports, membership numbers could drastically fall and we are left with more decisions and loss of income in a nutshell a disaster


Overall we could see a drop in really valuable membership numbers for BASC and BDS and income, plus the cost of stalkers wishing to advance on stalking procedures, that cost would greatly rise, pushing L2 out of reach and or worse make the L2 Route a no - go course of training

I personally hope there is no hidden agenda, and stalkers continue to support the BASC and BDS, both of these need to increase membership and work towards supporting field sports as a whole, it will be a very sad day for deer stalking if this all falls apart at the seams, it would perhaps be better to increase BASC membership by a £1.00 to cover additional costs. ????? Perhaps.

Phil

Hi Phil I was an AW (Just chucked it in) and never charged but I was never a member of BASC since they took over the old "Gamekeeper's Association". That was way prior to DMQ.

 

[sikamalc]

An AW does not need to be a member of BASC. I am certainly not a BASC member and have not been for a good many years. I have my reasons for not joining. I am however a member of the NGO and BDS.

 

[Overlay]

Approx 4 years ago with BASC membership cost increasing year on year I decide to switch to the NGO a few months later I received a letter from BASC saying it appeared that I was no longer a BACS member and as such my name would no longer be included in there list of A.W's
So in effect they wanted me to pay to be an A.W. even back then

To be honest as one of many that never charged it was no great loss.

Paul

If this is true to form, you have to be a BASC member.

 

[Cut+Squirt]

I can't say with certainty what the current situation is, but at one point BASC insisted that you were a paid up member to be an AW with them. .

Unfortunately given their latest debacle and their clear incapability to arrange a **** up in a brewery - they can poke their AW status where the sun don't shine . .and as they say on Dragons Den . . 'I'm out' !!!

 

[sikamalc]

As I understand it, (and I might be wrong) all AW's are now under one central committee panel made up of 7 individuals. BASC, NGO, BDS have no say in who becomes an AW. But who knows what goes on behind the scenes that we are not party too, either way I fear that if they proceed with the current thinking they will loose a good many AW's. But then maybe they want to ??
Time will tell I guess, but my time is valuable and I will still charge for an outing fee, but not for the paperwork, or time filling in the ICR, at least for the time being.

 

[alan]

Malc
Same thing happened to me on my first ICR. I crawled into a stubble field about 30 yards from my witness and shot a young doe. Not only was the stalk kicked out but the AW was virtually accused of being a liar in his write up.
On questioning the Assessor as to what he wanted the answer was shoot another with the AW close enough to see the safety come off and go back on again. When I asked did I have to do the full ICR again he told me no just shoot the beast. I asked him I can shoot it and just walk away? His reply was (and it still disgusts me) do what the F---- you want with it.
This assessor was famous up here for knocking back a candidate who shot a roe with a .308 because he thought it too much a rifle for a roe.
I have been an AW for about 10 years now. I don't usually charge, maybe just fuel but if DMQ think I am going to pay them for my services then they have another think coming.
regards
Alan

 

[User00043]

An AW does not need to be a member of BASC. I am certainly not a BASC member and have not been for a good many years. I have my reasons for not joining. I am however a member of the NGO and BDS.

I think it all depends on what assessment centre you registered with I am a BDS member and was a BASC member
I registered as an AW in 2005 and chose at the time to register with BASC and when I gave up membership in favour of NGO I was told that as I was no longer a BASC member I would no longer be included in there list of AW

Paul

 

[sikamalc]

Malc
Same thing happened to me on my first ICR. I crawled into a stubble field about 30 yards from my witness and shot a young doe. Not only was the stalk kicked out but the AW was virtually accused of being a liar in his write up.
On questioning the Assessor as to what he wanted the answer was shoot another with the AW close enough to see the safety come off and go back on again. When I asked did I have to do the full ICR again he told me no just shoot the beast. I asked him I can shoot it and just walk away? His reply was (and it still disgusts me) do what the F---- you want with it.
This assessor was famous up here for knocking back a candidate who shot a roe with a .308 because he thought it too much a rifle for a roe.
I have been an AW for about 10 years now. I don't usually charge, maybe just fuel but if DMQ think I am going to pay them for my services then they have another think coming.
regards
Alan

Was this through Barony College? Not sure if the same verifier is still operating out of there, but it makes me laugh that such individuals who were tax inspectors one minute are then experienced enough to become a verifier. So a 308 is too big for Roe...……………..laughable really, where do they get these people from...…………………..toy town!!
As far as being with BASC to be an AW that's a new one on me, but then I did my AW course with BDS and Dave Goffin.

 

[Cris]

When I last looked into being an AW you had to have two other AW’s recommendations before taking the briefing sessions. I never got round to it and probably won’t now if there’s a fee to pay.
Also thaught an AW had to have passed DSC 1 and 2 so should know one end of a rifle from the other.

Can’t say I am overly impressed with DMQ but what else do we have?

 

[Klenchblaize]

Malc
Same thing happened to me on my first ICR. I crawled into a stubble field about 30 yards from my witness and shot a young doe. Not only was the stalk kicked out but the AW was virtually accused of being a liar in his write up.
On questioning the Assessor as to what he wanted the answer was shoot another with the AW close enough to see the safety come off and go back on again. When I asked did I have to do the full ICR again he told me no just shoot the beast. I asked him I can shoot it and just walk away? His reply was (and it still disgusts me) do what the F---- you want with it.
This assessor was famous up here for knocking back a candidate who shot a roe with a .308 because he thought it too much a rifle for a roe.
I have been an AW for about 10 years now. I don't usually charge, maybe just fuel but if DMQ think I am going to pay them for my services then they have another think coming.
regards
Alan

This is very interesting and of course disappointing. It also part confirms a fear I've had for some time but perhaps mistakenly assumed could be avoided by careful choice of who one registers with. My understanding being as of writing the BDS will not have the same list of AW's as BASC.

Clearly I'm aware that ultimately it's DMQ issuing the certificate but hopefully someone can answer the following claryfying qestion please as I'm confused:

1. Who is assessing the Asseror's competencies and signing them up as Accredited L2 Witnesses?

2. If the answer to the above is DMQ why would the list of available AW's differ depending on who you sign up with?

3. If the answer to item 1 is in fact other than DMQ, is it fair to argue the quality of AW to be encountered will indeed be influenced by the in-house standards required and applied by the Organisations taking your registration fee? Assuming you only use an AW listed by your preffred DMQ accredited Organisation.

Thanks

K

 

[sikamalc]

This is very interesting and of course disappointing. It also part confirms a fear I've had for some time but perhaps mistakenly assumed could be avoided by careful choice of who one registers with. My understanding being as of writing the BDS will not have the same list of AW's as BASC.

Clearly I'm aware that ultimately it's DMQ issuing the certificate but hopefully someone can answer the following claryfying qestion please as I'm confused:

1. Who is assessing the Asseror's competencies and signing them up as Accredited L2 Witnesses?

2. If the answer to the above is DMQ why would the list of available AW's differ depending on who you sign up with?

3. If the answer to item 1 is in fact other than DMQ, is it fair to argue the quality of AW to be encountered will indeed be influenced by the in-house standards required and applied by the Organisations taking your registration fee? Assuming you only use an AW listed by your preffred DMQ accredited Organisation.

Thanks

K

1. I have no idea who assesses and Assessor. But I would add that in my opinion its very much a closed shop from what I have seen of it. And there are one or two that couldn't assess a cold in my opinion.

2. As far as I am aware the same list of Approved Witnesses is sent out to all Level 2 candidates, whether they join through BDS, BASC or NGO. It is then up to the candidate to choose which Approved Witness he/she contacts to undertake their Level 2 stalks.

3. This may have some foundation in it, and from the experiences I have had with candidates most have had no issue with their Assessor or Verifier. However in the past there does seem to have been some inconsistences and I can only speak from my own experiences, but this was sometime back.

 

[sikamalc]

Malc
Same thing happened to me on my first ICR. I crawled into a stubble field about 30 yards from my witness and shot a young doe. Not only was the stalk kicked out but the AW was virtually accused of being a liar in his write up.
On questioning the Assessor as to what he wanted the answer was shoot another with the AW close enough to see the safety come off and go back on again. When I asked did I have to do the full ICR again he told me no just shoot the beast. I asked him I can shoot it and just walk away? His reply was (and it still disgusts me) do what the F---- you want with it.
This assessor was famous up here for knocking back a candidate who shot a roe with a .308 because he thought it too much a rifle for a roe.
I have been an AW for about 10 years now. I don't usually charge, maybe just fuel but if DMQ think I am going to pay them for my services then they have another think coming.
regards
Alan

In my instance with this particular verifier he reported back to the Assessor, who then phoned me back, that I had to think of another instance where the candidate was with me and had shot a deer. I couldn't believe what I had been asked to do. I could have made anything up. The Assessor agreed it was unbelievable and sympathised with me and the candidate. I wont repeat what he called the verifier over the phone!

However the candidate in question was and is a good stalker and had guided for me over the years on all species. We had an instance where a poor Roe Buck was on the main drive into the estate a year or so before and he shot it in my presence cleanly and presented it in the larder. I will admit at that point in time I seriously thought about giving up being an AW as it seemed to me that people in charge had little or no experience of deer stalking.

But I like helping people out and have been in this game longer than most, especially by the sounds of it many in DMQ, and will continue for the time being.

 

[EMcC]

I felt a bit put out when I had an assessor contact me and asked if I had actually taken Mr ***** out on his L2 stalks and then started to ask me questions as if I was taking L2.
The assessor was a person I introduced to Stalking not that many years ago and boy was he a problem pupil. Roe Stags were his favourite quarry right up until he passed his L2

 

[sikamalc]

Sounds about right Eddy.

 

[lochty]

I've also had numerous problems with over zealous verifiers, which was one of the reasons I gave up being an AW. One, who both me and the assessor complained about, was sacked. But, as Malc suggested, it seems to be a closed shop where criticism isn't tolerated. BTW I'm not a BASC member.