long_range_rob
Well-Known Member
You gotta start somewhere!
DSC 1 Should there be more content
- Thread starter oowee
- Start date
Monkey Spanker
Well-Known Member
You seem to have the assumption that DSC 1 sets you up perfectly for DSC 2 and the next 3 deer you shoot should gain you that qualification? Unfortunately, this is not the case and is something I try to emphasise on DSC 1 courses. They are a quantum leap apart and you will not achieve DSC 2 without a good amount of practical experience and instruction on carcass handling. This is very difficult to quantify and will vary greatly on the individual as well as the level of training they receive. If I was pushed to quantify this, I would estimate the average stalker should aim for something like at least 20 deer over at least a whole season and including each species likely to be encountered. All of these preferably under some kind of instruction or guidance. Of course, everyone is different and some will pick things up quicker than others. I've AW'd veterinary surgeons and butchers/meat inspectors who know more about the carcass than I do! DSC 1 will set you well on the road to a safe and understanding stalking path, but there is definitely a training deficiency between DSC 1 and DSC 2. Some training providers offer solutions to this and unfortunately this can be costly.
My advice is - do not register for DSC 2 on completion of DSC 1 as you will probably not be ready for it and will just be wasting precious months of your 3 year registration period. An experienced AW or Assessor will be able to ascertain whether you are ready or not over the phone generally. I'm always happy to help or advise.
MS
Essex stalker
Well-Known Member
It was a long time ago know so difficult to remember all the details but I did the BASC Intermediate deer course with Andy Papworth which was very informative but once again is very dependant on the person running it, a number of people also run good gralloching courses all of which help you develop your skills before setting off down the L2 path
Who's DSC1 courses are you advising that people should not book straight on to the next level?
As they are commercial (not free) it makes no sense to hold people back other wise the progression will stall.
Teaching (as that is what you are doing) needs to be in the positive not the negative.....
Tim.243
DSC2 is unlike DSC1. DSC1 is tutor lead instruction and demonstration. In effect it is the "show one" part of "show one, do one, teach one". DSC2 is a demonstration not only that you have taken on board the theory of DSC1, but you have now practised the "do one" part enough times to be proficient. Clearly, there needs to be an interval of experience gathering between DSC1 and DSC2, the latter containing no new tuition only critical observation of practical ability. I agree with MS, don't rush to DSC2 immediately after DSC1.
Monkey Spanker
Well-Known Member
Candidates are given a lecture on progression towards DSC 2 during which they are advised only to register for DSC 2 once they have the skills and knowledge to achieve it. To gain experience on both sexes of each species you might encounter in their various reproductive stages is likely to take most novice stalkers a whole season. This is not holding anyone back. What it is doing though is giving them the best opportunity to use the entire 3 year period to good effect if required, rather than their registration expire and them have to pay for it again as we see all too often from people that register too soon.
I can't see how that is negative. So what would you advise then?
The rifle test is not instructed nor demonstrated or even the simulated stalk/safety back stop test..
In fact you can sit portions of the test at separate times as I am sure you are aware...
A long time stalker might be in the need to have the "paper work" so following yours and Ms's advice he would be "held back" under the blanket of advice....
Tim.243
+1. Does anyone take an HGV test before a car test?
Monkey Spanker
Well-Known Member
We do give instruction to novices that borrow the club rifle on operation of the rifles as well as coaching and dry firing in the various positions required for the shoot test. The safety test cannot be 'instructed' as it is little more than common sense. If I could teach that I'd be a millionaire!
The advice given is not to register until ready. If a 'long time stalker' as you put it feels they are ready then they should register. I still don't see how this advice holds anyone back that feels they are ready?
You clearly don't agree with DSC or any form of paperwork or continued professional development, and yet you clearly know so little about it?
Do you do anything to try and better yourself, or are you already perfect? I'm certainly not and will continue to strive to improve myself.
MS
Like most things in life, DSC1 courses are no different, you get the good, the bad, and the indifferent !
For me, the DSC1 should cover three fundamental areas.
1) Identify a deer that's legal to shoot
2) Making sure the shot will be safe, and a clean kill
3) Dealing with the gralloch/carcass.
If you don't know how to do number "3", IMHO, you shouldn't be pulling the trigger ! Unless you have someone there who can talk you through the gralloch.
I can only comment on my course, and whilst very good in the other areas, this area was very poor.
For me, the DSC1 should cover three fundamental areas.
1) Identify a deer that's legal to shoot
2) Making sure the shot will be safe, and a clean kill
3) Dealing with the gralloch/carcass.
If you don't know how to do number "3", IMHO, you shouldn't be pulling the trigger ! Unless you have someone there who can talk you through the gralloch.
I can only comment on my course, and whilst very good in the other areas, this area was very poor.
MS you missed my point. It's exactly the same as yours. There is a gulf between 1 and 2 that needs filling on the practical aspects of stalking. Not something that is well explained to the begginer or the cost incurred if you don't have a friend will in to help you.
I was very lucky to be professionally trained and paid well before DMQ arrived. Thinking about being an AW to butlast time I looked they had things on hold for new AW's. Have things changed now?
Rifle proficiency and safety were definitely a part of my DSC1, although the simulated stalk did not contain live firing. Live firing was limited to the range proficiency from standing, kneeling and prone positions at various ranges. Some passed, some did not. The test was real enough. But I still do not get the point of the criticism here. In a limited duration course, novice deer managers gain a great deal. After DSC1, they should stalk with those of greater experience than themselves and practice all the elements of a good stalk including gralloch. After that, take DSC2 if competent.
In your hypothetical case of a highly experienced hunter I do not believe I, or anyone else on this forum, suggested they should be dissuaded from taking DSC2 soon after DSC1. What all have said [rightly] is that a newbie to hunting is not automatically competent to DSC2 standard immediately following DSC1 completion. Some might be, most not.
One last observation: the DMQ accreditation is about a standard. I know that when I drive a car I probably do not use best practice all the time, that I have got into some habits that would be frowned on by any Driving Instructor today. It could be same with a deer stalker of many years experience. For example some shortcuts in blade management in the field gralloch: safe enough but perhaps not best practice wrt hygeine?
Certification [in this discussion: DMQ, but concept extends equally to university degrees, or NVQs, etc] demonstrates that the bearer has worked within a defined system to an agreed level of adjudicated competence. You acknowledge this when you refer to "paper work". Prospective employers have to have a yardstick to sift chancers from potential candidates. The certification process confers some measure here.
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I left this reply until today as yesterday afternoon it was my Dads funeral...
My replies are observations of reading through posts made by people choose to dish out advice from commercial courses they "assist on". Spending 30p a day on trade membership would add credibility to the free advice....
My experience on further education comes from teaching just under 300 dive course's over a 9 year period, qualifying people in the murky lakes of the UK also various South coast dive site...
Running dozens of dive holidays to Egypt combing further education on liver board's.
Teaching (in English) Dutch, Norwegian , Danish, Afrikaans students....
Towing a dead diver (who you don't know) back to a boat is not nice, also seeing the remains of single tank divers on 100mtr dives who might have been advised to go off and get some experience...
When someone rocks up to the dive centre wanting to do a nitrox course (%40 oxygen) you don't advise them to go off and get some experience with Fred who uses it because they are not ready...!
Well I get the further education bit...
I shot my Dsc1 test off my quads sticks, people who owned rifles were missing the bull at a 100 yards from prone off a flat bench! On that day I called to stop the shoot as the FC ranger didn't see 3 people who had wandered off heading to the shooting area. Had I been laying prone grass height I would have not seen them....!!
A member (non trade) asked what I would advise, that would be stop advising people about commercial courses and pay the 30pence a day as a trade member....
Tim.243
Highlandsjohn
Well-Known Member
Well said Tim.
I am sorry for your loss of dad. I was thinking about him yesterday. Chin up,can't be easy.ATB john
I am sorry for your loss of dad. I was thinking about him yesterday. Chin up,can't be easy.ATB john
Cheers John, good turn out, good service....he is with mum know so a great comfort.
Thanks for the support from you and some of the other lads off here.
Also to PaulO who took a day off work to take me...
Tim.243
Richiepolecat
Well-Known Member
Tim, sorry to read about your dad. Hard times I'm sure. What you're missing here is that DSC2 in not a course. You're not there to be taught anything (although you may be if the AW has to step in, but by then you're going to be on a re-show anyway). You're basically turning up to sit the exam only and you have 3 years to pass that exam. Why would anyone want to use up some of that 3 years studying? If they already know the answers then happy days, get tested. So many people, myself included, take DSC1 having never even shot a deer. Those people certainly don't know all the answers for DSC2!
Frank Homes
Well-Known Member
Nice post Tim and sorry to hear about your dad. At least we know you can shoot deer and foxes as you provide weekly evidence. Dexter you're right it's just an exam and some people are good at exams, others are not so perhaps it's time that that the DSC2 was a mixture of both instruction and testing?
F
F
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