DSC 1 Should there be more content

[Milligan]

Nice post Tim and sorry to hear about your dad. At least we know you can shoot deer and foxes as you provide weekly evidence. Dexter you're right it's just an exam and some people are good at exams, others are not so perhaps it's time that that the DSC2 was a mixture of both instruction and testing?

F

I think people should maybe go and look at the DSC2 learning outcomes and then decide whether they are ready.
Read through it, if you think you can demonstrate all the points competently (even under some pressure) then go for it.
If you're left wondering what the words mean or what you would say or do then you're probably not ready.

https://www.dmq.org.uk/downloads/#tab-id-3

There are pre-DSC2 courses out there which are commercial.
Personally, I have stalked with a number of experienced friends and watched them.
I also went on a park cull with the people I did my DSC1 with which was excellent and I got more gralloch experience in one weekend than many would have in a year. I have since established my own process that works for me and results in a clean carcass in various circumstances.
Confidence builds over time along with acceptance that stuff doesn't always go to plan.

I still had to learn the technical terms for the nodes but when I registered for DSC2 I completed it in 3 stalks and in 3 months start to finish.

In the end the DSC2 is not a dark art, it's meant for people to demonstrate they have established a level of competence.

P.S. Search youtube for Jelen Deer (no affiliation) and there are scores of excellent videos. One of which was filmed on the park cull I attended.

 

[Dexter]

Couldn't agree more Milligan. I have seen people go from almost zero to hero having been helpers on park culls. Demonstration, carry out, carry out again and again. One gralloched 16 fallow back to back and was unrecognisable from the man from the day before. A few questions slipped in whilst doing the inspection is like a DSC2 training course without the stalking. Certainly not time wasted that's for sure.

 

[zambezi]

In the end the DSC2 is not a dark art, it's meant for people to demonstrate they have established a level of competence.

Agree Milligan 100%

 

[JTO]

Someone said: "I am told, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do, and I KNOW/UNDERSTAND".

 

[norma 308]

One thing for certain is deer stalkers could argue over will the sun rise or set,as for dsc1-2 I was very very sceptical but I bit hard on the bullet did both even though I considered myself experienced I learnt from 1 then 12 months later took 2 , I took advise from several AWs before I did so and brushed up on my skills ie nodes deseases ect my stalking and fieldcraft safety was fine , I don’t think I’d do the deer managers course as I’m happy or become an AW But just because I won’t don’t mean I’ll discount them or those that would like too .
Dsc2 has and continues to open doors for me I'm glad I took a look at learning more and putting it into practice
Norma

 

[Alantoo]

Someone said: "I am told, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do, and I KNOW/UNDERSTAND".

I was told it was Confucius by an Education lecturer teaching us about the value of visual aids at college, and that it mirrored the then (1970s) thinking of how our memory works. His version was very slightly differently worded "I hear, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do, and I understand."

Certainly seems to be true for my brain.

I remember it because as well as telling us...he wrote it on the board and I wrote it down on the lid of my paint box, so I saw lots of times!

Alan

 

[zambezi]

A member (non trade) asked what I would advise, that would be stop advising people about commercial courses and pay the 30pence a day as a trade member....

Tim.243

Sorry to hear of your loss Tim. Looking at your statement above, I wonder if you could clarify to whom this part of your reply was directed? As it was prepended by my earlier update to the thread, I assume you think I run a deerstalking business? For the record: I do not. I am a recreational stalker and work in IT. I have zero revenue from any shooting activity.

 

[Tim.243]

Sorry to hear of your loss Tim. Looking at your statement above, I wonder if you could clarify to whom this part of your reply was directed? As it was prepended by my earlier update to the thread, I assume you think I run a deerstalking business? For the record: I do not. I am a recreational stalker and work in IT. I have zero revenue from any shooting activity.

Thank you about Dad,

As for the other part you should read further back in the thread. I cant recall you writing "what would you advice" so you miss read or read into it what you needed, the post included a lot more detail of further education as well as the bit you cherry picked.







Tim.243

 

[sikastag270]

hi tim
just heard about your dad very sorry.
regards Robert.

 

[Tim.243]

hi tim
just heard about your dad very sorry.
regards Robert.

Most kind....

Tim.243

 

[Tim.243]

Glad it went well and good turn out.

Rich

Ta Rich, see you at the clay shoot

Tim.243

 

[Tim.243]

Tim, sorry to read about your dad. Hard times I'm sure. What you're missing here is that DSC2 in not a course. You're not there to be taught anything (although you may be if the AW has to step in, but by then you're going to be on a re-show anyway). You're basically turning up to sit the exam only and you have 3 years to pass that exam. Why would anyone want to use up some of that 3 years studying? If they already know the answers then happy days, get tested. So many people, myself included, take DSC1 having never even shot a deer. Those people certainly don't know all the answers for DSC2!

Catching up to thank you

Tim.243

 

[Tim.243]

Nice post Tim and sorry to hear about your dad. At least we know you can shoot deer and foxes as you provide weekly evidence. Dexter you're right it's just an exam and some people are good at exams, others are not so perhaps it's time that that the DSC2 was a mixture of both instruction and testing?

F

Cheers Frank

Tim.243

 

[Monkey Spanker]

I left this reply until today as yesterday afternoon it was my Dads funeral...

My replies are observations of reading through posts made by people choose to dish out advice from commercial courses they "assist on". Spending 30p a day on trade membership would add credibility to the free advice....


A member (non trade) asked what I would advise, that would be stop advising people about commercial courses and pay the 30pence a day as a trade member....


Tim.243

Sorry to hear about your dad.
So you would expect me to pay trade membership for encouraging people to undertake training and professional development to better themselves and promote deer welfare, even though I don't even specify a training provider? I've carried out literally hundreds of DSC 2 stalks as an a AW and charged the same amount for each one. Absolutely nothing! I've AW'd numerous people on this Site,
the last 3 I did was for sammyc on here. I didn't even charge him for fuel to get to the stalking ground so I am already out of pocket! I've also assessed huge of amounts portfolios including some by AW's such as Sika Malc. Yes, I do get paid for those, but it is a mere pittance which equates to less than minimum wage. I do this as a 'labour of love' effectively as I truly believe it promotes deer welfare and secures our future as deer managers. Do you really think I am some kind of trader by promoting training and experience to improve deer management and welfare? I believe I genuinely help less fortunate people to get into deer stalking which they couldn't otherwise afford. If you want me to pay extra for that, then I'll give it up as it will make my life easier and I'll be financially better off.
What would you advise now?
MS

 

[Tim.243]

Sorry to hear about your dad.
So you would expect me to pay trade membership for encouraging people to undertake training and professional development to better themselves and promote deer welfare, even though I don't even specify a training provider? I've carried out literally hundreds of DSC 2 stalks as an a AW and charged the same amount for each one. Absolutely nothing! I've AW'd numerous people on this Site,
the last 3 I did was for sammyc on here. I didn't even charge him for fuel to get to the stalking ground so I am already out of pocket! I've also assessed huge of amounts portfolios including some by AW's such as Sika Malc. Yes, I do get paid for those, but it is a mere pittance which equates to less than minimum wage. I do this as a 'labour of love' effectively as I truly believe it promotes deer welfare and secures our future as deer managers. Do you really think I am some kind of trader by promoting training and experience to improve deer management and welfare? I believe I genuinely help less fortunate people to get into deer stalking which they couldn't otherwise afford. If you want me to pay extra for that, then I'll give it up as it will make my life easier and I'll be financially better off.
What would you advise now?
MS

Thank you,
Do as you wish, however acting as a nearly free service only serves to take work away from those on here who charge and provide a professional service with all the overheads that come with what they provide.

By doing it for " free " lowers the rate and in turn the income which needs to be generated back into the sport.

As a business man you charge your rate for the work/service you provide, having a person willing to travel and provide a free service is not what you would want/need competing in todays economic climate...

I am sure those you help are grateful, however others who's work you take away might think differently, as why go to them when they can go to you.

The rates in shooting are at both ends of the scale £30.00 + for partridge, 10p later in the season with it in the chillier. A gold medal ££££ 2.80 a kg on the hook.


As nice a gesture as it is, you cant save the sport by doing it for free...

Edit this morning as last night was to late for maths, a member on here who I know very well is currently doing his dsc2.
The cost per stalk/witness is £150.

As you mention " I've carried out literally hundreds of DSC 2 stalks as an a AW"

If you equate hundreds in to a value of lets say 500

500 x £150 = £75000.00

That is 75k which has been potentially taken out of stalking operators pockets...

You once said to me in a reply " you don't know what you are doing"

75k is a lot of, you don't know what you are doing!

Tim.243

 

[barbel]

When I did my dsc 1 and large game meat hygiene I felt a real grollach would have been more educational than a dvd, @ 300 a person, was I expecting to much, ? to reply to the first post, nothing like experience, and seeing in real life, to help .

 

[bowji john]

When I did my DSC 1 (with the BDS) - the instructor did 2.

One hanging and one on the ground

i thought that was normal - surprised to hear that for some they didn't even get to see one

 

[baguio]

Thank you,
By doing it for " free " lowers the rate and in turn the income which needs to be generated back into the sport.

As a business man you charge your rate for the work/service you provide, having a person willing to travel and provide a free service is not what you would want/need competing in todays economic climate...

Edit this morning as last night was to late for maths, a member on here who I know very well is currently doing his dsc2.
The cost per stalk/witness is £150.

As you mention " I've carried out literally hundreds of DSC 2 stalks as an a AW"

If you equate hundreds in to a value of lets say 500

500 x £150 = £75000.00

That is 75k which has been potentially taken out of stalking operators pockets...

You once said to me in a reply " you don't know what you are doing"

75k is a lot of, you don't know what you are doing!

Tim.243

Do you know Tim, this is a blatant case of 'Damned if you do and damned if you don't'. MS can't do it for free because that's doing pros out of income but he can't charge because then he would need trade membership and no doubt also be accused of profiteering out of less wealthy stalkers. Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways.
Anyway, IMO your theory is very wrong. Professionals charge for guided stalks but very few of them charge for the witnessing. Pro stalking is in a hard job with long hours and tight margins. I would say that they would rather just do the stalks and a bit of training and not have the hassle (and using up a lot of time) of Witnessing at all. MS is therefore saving them the agro. You have also doubled the cost of a trip out which is nearer £75 than £150 a time for cull animals as I'm sure you know and does you no favours at all!
I'm more than happy to have pros come on here and tell me that they would like to do more Witnessing but I don't think that it will happen. Most appear to be well booked up anyway so MS doesn't appear to be hurting them too much?
baguio

 

[Tim.243]

Do you know Tim, this is a blatant case of 'Damned if you do and damned if you don't'. MS can't do it for free because that's doing pros out of income but he can't charge because then he would need trade membership and no doubt also be accused of profiteering out of less wealthy stalkers. Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways.
Anyway, IMO your theory is very wrong. Professionals charge for guided stalks but very few of them charge for the witnessing. Pro stalking is in a hard job with long hours and tight margins. I would say that they would rather just do the stalks and a bit of training and not have the hassle (and using up a lot of time) of Witnessing at all. MS is therefore saving them the agro. You have also doubled the cost of a trip out which is nearer £75 than £150 a time for cull animals as I'm sure you know and does you no favours at all!
I'm more than happy to have pros come on here and tell me that they would like to do more Witnessing but I don't think that it will happen. Most appear to be well booked up anyway so MS doesn't appear to be hurting them too much?
baguio

Yes you are quite right,

If it was any other business such as a garage hourly rate @ £75.00 per hour and next door doing it for a tenner that might raise an eyebrow...


A friend questioned an electrician's invoice after his wife called the guy to come look, he looked went away come back and fixed the fault. £50.00 call out fee, saying you don't expect me to come out for free?

Any way I am off to help out set the club clay traps for tomorrows shoot.


Tim.243

 

[baguio]

Any way I am off to help out set the club clay traps for tomorrows shoot.

I hope that you're charging for your time? If not, you're seeing off all of the professional grounds that charge and have overheads to pay?