DSC2 Questions

[baguio]

FYI, I shoot between 50 to 100 deer per year, more than happy with my gralloch and inspection. The answers to my two questions provided by most people have been helpful and clarified that:

If you're shooting those numbers Your skills should be fine. Whilst experience definitely doesn't guarantee knowledge or a high level of skill, if you're honest with yourself about what your carcasses look like and can find and name the lymph nodes I would be very surprised if you're not ready.

 

[sikamalc]

Does someone know how many times you need to be witnessed nowadays? I was under the impression that it was only one but checking the BASC flow chart it seems to still be three?
View attachment 376041

For anyone to complete their DSC 2 they have to attain one successful stalk. However, as far as I am aware you can still undertake a partial stalk, by sitting in a high seat, or stalking a deer, without a successful shot being taken. You can then go onto to complete another stalk later on and complete a kill and larder work. This is then regarded as a complete stalk. Shooting a deer from a high seat will not for fill a complete ICR.

 

[gixer1]

Do what you would normally do - you sound like you have shot enough deer to be able to demonstrate competence, some people think there is only one way of doing it - that’s not the case.

An AW shouldn’t be suggesting you do one type of gralloch or another - they should stand back and witness….and only stop you if there is a safety concern and the stalk would be over at that point. as long as you do it within the requirements you do not need to demonstrate a ground and suspended gralloch.

 

[kieran222]

Do what you would normally do - you sound like you have shot enough deer to be able to demonstrate competence, some people think there is only one way of doing it - that’s not the case.

Agreed, I once advertised a deer on Giving Up The Game and included a pic of a deer suspended from a tree having been gralloched. I had some "know it all" criticise me for unhygienic practice, saying that the gralloch should be done in the larder to avoid contamination . He also said that he had been a stalker on an estate in Scotland for years.
I replied with the BASC video on gralloching deer, suggesting that he watch and learn.

As an aside, plenty of people trying to boost their ego on social media by criticising others with the sole intention of bigging themselves up.

For myself, the only reason I am doing the DSC2 is because I got one of the forestry grants to cover the cost. Anyone interested, make sure that you apply for the grant as it covers the full cost of the DSC2 (excluding any stalking fees).

 

[cjm1066]

The 3 v 1 stalk change is regrettable.

We have all had great stalks we remember when we had to work for an animal due to wind cover etc, they are suitable for DMQ assessment. During the outing you might have seen 10 deer, a mixture of species and genders and perhaps unsafe shots so your assessor can judge you.

At times we get kitted up and a deer literally commits suicide, you are perhaps still beside the car and haven't even begun your stalk, however it's one for the cull. Is that a stalk that is appropriate evidence?

 

[User00057]

The 3 v 1 stalk change is regrettable.

We have all had great stalks we remember when we had to work for an animal due to wind cover etc, they are suitable for DMQ assessment. During the outing you might have seen 10 deer, a mixture of species and genders and perhaps unsafe shots so your assessor can judge you.

At times we get kitted up and a deer literally commits suicide, you are perhaps still beside the car and haven't even begun your stalk, however it's one for the cull. Is that a stalk that is appropriate evidence?

I wondered how long it would be before someone bitched about it only being 1 stalk now. Well done SD never fails. Let me guess you did yours when it was still 3.
The fact is it is only 1 stalk if you Stalk into an animal and dispatch it. I was lucky with mine as after a long stalk I come apon an animal. I have a friend that has done 4 stalks now. Wrong time of year and only seen species that are not in season. You yes it can be done in one but it also can be done in a few more.
Or are you saying you think we should have to cull more than one animal ? And how does this make it any better if you can prove competence on your first.

 

[Eddie P]

My assessment consisted of an evening stalk, but no shot (low sun behind a deer, so couldn't see well enough), then the next morning, we were mooching about multiple patches of land for 2.5 hours I passed up a deer as I wasn't stable quick enough and he started moving.
I feel that I spent enough time proving my stalking skills / safety.
1 can be enough.

 

[User00057]

100% agree mate. It’s only the people that did it at 3 and feel cheated it’s only 1 now that complain. If it takes more you do more simple as that.

 

[Bowland blades]

I have never really understood this 3 stalks vs one. You had to do them all right, no? Or are you saying your candidates didn't have to be ready and meet the standard on all three?

I didn't have to pass my Maths three times for the examiner to believe I knew it well enough. Either you can do it or not. It is an assessment of basic level competence not a demonstration of expertise.

Passing DSC2 on Munties in Bedfordshire does not make you an expert stalker in the high Cairngorms despite what some people believe. As an aside, these people would get on a bit better if they demonstrated some self-awareness and humility.

It was more than the killing of a beast and a look over for odd things that might mean sickness or such . When i did my level 2 you needed 3 beasts witnessed minimum , that said most evidenced half a dozen or more i put in that amount . No park/ fenced in , pet deer culling allowed . My fist internal verifier did no real questioning and neither did he pass or fail me ( he mainly told me 243 was too small a caliber ) did not pass or fail me it just sat there . Then Alex Jagger the head man did my questioning which was to describe and name the whole lymphatic system head to the Butt hole and explain what i was looking for during it ( i got some of the names a bit off but got the places and descriptions correct . ) I had to talk through what happened on each of my stalks and was posed with a fictitious scenario within a rock strewn quarry having to account for a wounded beast . Thing was every time i made a solution i was added a factor as in " no its moved to a brow and the ricochet risk is too high for it to be safe etc . It went on and on until i had to stalk in and finish the beast with a knife . Yep Seriously it one of those things i really remembered well and it was a couple of decades ago now .
I dont know if all got that sort of treatment but i learned my first verifier lost his position over his incompetence , very glad i learned from a great stalker who was witness to me FOC on my ground and also on his without a penny handed over and the fact that my memory was well up to the challenges posed at verification - I would be utterly stuffed today .
What i can say about then and now is the system i feel was more robust and lead to a higher standard of level 2 stalkers. That is what i wanted and yes i think the new way is about getting through more and making a turn in the process for various connected people.
Regards different species or different locations , I dont think its an issue . I managed just fine when i started going south for Muntjac and CWD many years later , i am still learning where ever i am - i just might not learn as fast or remember as much fine detail . I also have dozens of OK ways to process a deer and every one learned has its ups and downsides and some game dealers want something the other doesn't want

 

[Eddie P]

It was more than the killing of a beast and a look over for odd things that might mean sickness or such . When i did my level 2 you needed 3 beasts witnessed minimum , that said most evidenced half a dozen or more i put in that amount . No park/ fenced in , pet deer culling allowed . My fist internal verifier did no real questioning and neither did he pass or fail me ( he mainly told me 243 was too small a caliber ) did not pass or fail me it just sat there . Then Alex Jagger the head man did my questioning which was to describe and name the whole lymphatic system head to the Butt hole and explain what i was looking for during it ( i got some of the names a bit off but got the places and descriptions correct . ) I had to talk through what happened on each of my stalks and was posed with a fictitious scenario within a rock strewn quarry having to account for a wounded beast . Thing was every time i made a solution i was added a factor as in " no its moved to a brow and the ricochet risk is too high for it to be safe etc . It went on and on until i had to stalk in and finish the beast with a knife . Yep Seriously it one of those things i really remembered well and it was a couple of decades ago now .
I dont know if all got that sort of treatment but i learned my first verifier lost his position over his incompetence , very glad i learned from a great stalker who was witness to me FOC on my ground and also on his without a penny handed over and the fact that my memory was well up to the challenges posed at verification - I would be utterly stuffed today .
What i can say about then and now is the system i feel was more robust and lead to a higher standard of level 2 stalkers. That is what i wanted and yes i think the new way is about getting through more and making a turn in the process for various connected people.
Regards different species or different locations , I dont think its an issue . I managed just fine when i started going south for Muntjac and CWD many years later , i am still learning where ever i am - i just might not learn as fast or remember as much fine detail . I also have dozens of OK ways to process a deer and every one learned has its ups and downsides and some game dealers want something the other doesn't want

That sounds like it should be a syllabus / assessment for "dsc3"

 

[User100]

Then Alex Jagger the head man did my questioning which was to describe and name the whole lymphatic system head to the Butt hole and explain what i was looking for during it ( i got some of the names a bit off but got the places and descriptions correct . )

When you say the 'whole lymphatic system', do you mean that literally or is that a figure of speech for the main 7 lymph nodes?

 

[Overlay]

If you’ve culled 50 dear per annum and trained yourself to be compliant for/to your now 1 ICR - because it is now only one to complete there is more content from the AW than perhaps on the three stalks

One ICR isn't a doddle it’s a constructive exercise for the candidate to be proficient in by way of action not all paperwork and that he is able to complete a deer removal from start to finish in a safe and confident manner

Makes no difference how you do it, do it to be compliant and your way with confidence.

If you stalked and gralloched 50 deer from field to larder and been shown and trained yourself to within the requirements you will pass

If you haven’t and just learnt a bit from your mate, and dragged a few grallochs out, you could find yourself on the track of more work required.

I’m not banging a drum here, enjoy the stalking and progress at your own pace and enjoy the time

When I completed my 3 i had to do 4 stalks because one stalk was no more than a 40 yds stalk to where i shot a Muntjac, but it did mean I’m got a chance to grass a nice 6 pointer roe as well so alls well that ends well

Get it done and enjoy the upward ride good luck

 

[Bowland blades]

When you say the 'whole lymphatic system', do you mean that literally or is that a figure of speech for the main 7 lymph nodes?

i mean from the mouth right through to the pooshoot. I do not include those that are hidden inside the muscle groups like the haunches etc .

 

[NullMac]

At times we get kitted up and a deer literally commits suicide, you are perhaps still beside the car and haven't even begun your stalk, however it's one for the cull. Is that a stalk that is appropriate evidence?

Yes.

Can you get close enough and not scare the deer off. Yes
Can you shoot. Yes.
Can you gralloch etc hygienically. Yes

It is a basic qualification. Not a mark of expertise.

 

[Bowland blades]

When you say the 'whole lymphatic system', do you mean that literally or is that a figure of speech for the main 7 lymph nodes?

The questioning was " start at the nose and work through till you finish the anus " taking the question as you ask are you expecting a stalker in the larder to check the lymph nodes in the haunchs etc etc ( heck no that definitely aint going to happen) Now its been a long while probably 20 years or so and i doubt i could actually do that now and i guess its the same for most who are not a practicing vet / or a meat inspector at a slaughterhouse etc . However It was very much more robust than shoot one deer witnessed and there was absolutely a more rigorous ( maybe over the top ) . My point is shooting one penned in deer , driving over to a fence line and murdering a beast that could have been fed from a bucket only hours earlier ? Where is the measure of a candidate to stalk true wild deer ?
In the real world , different estates want things doing in different ways and likewise different practices will often be used than the norm .
But hey , whatever way we spin things Level 2 has become an irrelevance. Why ? Because if you where tasked to recruit a bunch of stalkers unknown to you for a cull or for a syndicate even where would you start ? When it could be a stalker who has maybe not planned and executed a bare minimum proven stalk - on a park deer that you could whistle up or call in with a bucket of feed ?

 

[User00057]

Here you go again. Never fails

 

[Bowland blades]

.

You got an point ? I was asked a question by another , it wasn't you asking ! You have no point and so your pointless i suppose eh ?

 

[User00057]

My point is you were asked a question about the lymphatic system and you somehow then start moaning about how the DSC2 is not as good as it was before and shooting park Deer again.
If you don’t like it it’s tough as you can’t change it. But we are all getting bored of hearing it on every thread now I imagine.
For what it’s worth I don’t know anyone that has shot park Deer for the DSC2.

 

[Bowland blades]

My point is you were asked a question about the lymphatic system and you somehow then start moaning about how the DSC2 is not as good as it was before and shooting park Deer again.
If you don’t like it it’s tough as you can’t change it. But we are all getting bored of hearing it on every thread now I imagine.
For what it’s worth I don’t know anyone that has shot park Deer for the DSC2.

So you have surveyed the membership or just a few close friends ? Frankly there is no question that DSC2 was reduced vastly in content of evidence in that there is no question at all - Because it plainly was REDUCED ! minimum of three fully wild deer to just one blah blah blah .
Neither have i but its allowed and it is used . If you don't know about anyone who has shot park deer / fenced in ? So what my comment was that it is allowed now
Its not like DMQ can roll the clock back , its not a personal attack but just is what it is
Park deer is a wider front that gets rolled in here as a clarification and i do want to make the point where the boundaries' are for me and that is if you can walk up to them and feed even touch them , running up to a man with a bucket of feed ? well into something that should not be in a DSC2 portfolio

 

[User00057]

Yeah you made the point on every thread you have trolled mate. Like I said we are bored of it.
If you really need to vent then speak to DMQ not ruin every thread on here.