Perfect.
Effect of night shooting on activity patterns
- Thread starter Mungo
- Start date
Nickb
Well-Known Member
Common sense really
Deermanagement
Well-Known Member
Lots of talk about night shooting, I’m sure much of it not legal 
Back in the day, it was very difficult to obtain a “night licence”. If it came to that, it just required more time and effort or more people during legal hours. Controversial I’m sure, but the same applies today, people should put more effort in or if they cannot, allow a few others to help out, maybe giving sone who struggle to secure land an opportunity
I think applications for night licences are just the easy way out, doesn’t involve any stalking skills, just a method of killing deer
It is also another way that over time will have a big negative effect on the larger species that roam over different areas. Maybe I should apply for a night licence to shoot the neighbours pheasants that come to roost in woodland on my lease, they are invasive, too many of them and detrimental to the environment apparently
Back in the day, it was very difficult to obtain a “night licence”. If it came to that, it just required more time and effort or more people during legal hours. Controversial I’m sure, but the same applies today, people should put more effort in or if they cannot, allow a few others to help out, maybe giving sone who struggle to secure land an opportunity
I think applications for night licences are just the easy way out, doesn’t involve any stalking skills, just a method of killing deer
It is also another way that over time will have a big negative effect on the larger species that roam over different areas. Maybe I should apply for a night licence to shoot the neighbours pheasants that come to roost in woodland on my lease, they are invasive, too many of them and detrimental to the environment apparently
It’s simple up here in Scotland .. you lease a bit of ground and some Forestry Agents automatically give you an out of season ticket and a night licence and if you need to use them then there are your disposal 
.. if you don’t need to use them then hey ho but there there in case .. they are shot legally as “ everything I shoot is done legally “ so no need for your twisted thoughts on “my” behalf 
no need for a night licence pal to get rid of the pesky pheasants just do what you told everyone else to do and get of your arse .. get down to the wood .. climb up the tree in the dark and shoo them away and if you cant shoo them away get somebody in that can shoo louder than you .
.. if you don’t need to use them then hey ho but there there in case .. they are shot legally as “ everything I shoot is done legally “ so no need for your twisted thoughts on “my” behalf no need for a night licence pal to get rid of the pesky pheasants just do what you told everyone else to do and get of your arse .. get down to the wood .. climb up the tree in the dark and shoo them away and if you cant shoo them away get somebody in that can shoo louder than you .
Nickb
Well-Known Member
Meanwhile in the real worldmaybe giving sone who struggle to secure land an opportunity
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Night licences etc only allow continued picking away at the deer and they very quickly get used to and get even more difficult to catch.
The only real way of controlling deer numbers, as most of our continental cousins have found is to organise driven hunts. You put lots of rifles out in the woods over a good area, and then beaters stir things up. Each area is shot like this once or twice a winter.
It does however require working together with your neighbours and others in the surrounding area.
On the continent a couple of driven hunts puts a major dent, 50% plus into the required cull. The rest of the year is picking off the odd ones and focusing on the trophy bucks, stags etc.
I have done a little night shooting. All it does is just make life more difficult - shooting them, gralloching, retrieving them etc just gets a whole lot harder work when it gets dark.
The only real way of controlling deer numbers, as most of our continental cousins have found is to organise driven hunts. You put lots of rifles out in the woods over a good area, and then beaters stir things up. Each area is shot like this once or twice a winter.
It does however require working together with your neighbours and others in the surrounding area.
On the continent a couple of driven hunts puts a major dent, 50% plus into the required cull. The rest of the year is picking off the odd ones and focusing on the trophy bucks, stags etc.
I have done a little night shooting. All it does is just make life more difficult - shooting them, gralloching, retrieving them etc just gets a whole lot harder work when it gets dark.
You hit it on the head with the last paragraph .. it’s not an easy as everyone thinks on big clearfells and plantations , so many problems can haunt you if you haven’t thought it out . I take my hat of to anyone who does it full time and they deserve every penny they get .
How many deer are shot per man hour on a typical driven hunt? How much disturbance does it create?
Night shooting is not the answer to deer control, it's only one of the tools that can be used. I like to mix everything up, don't go to one place too often. Don't only go dusk, try a dawn outing. Add a night shoot into the equation. Deer are not daft and soon learn to evade.
I agree that night shooting does make extraction and gralloching a bit more difficult. Falling about in the dark is less fun than falling about in daylight. I still love a daylight outing. I can't say the same for night shooting
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
A typical driven hunt will shoot many deer. Disturbance is for one or two days per year.
Most hunting areas will to do 50% of their cull in one or two days driven hunting.
Yes its a big disturbance on the day and possibly the day after, but for other 360 days the deep woods are left alone.
Man hours is the wrong measurement. Having a number of people means that extractions are not a mission. Six guys on a big stag - easy to carry out. On of two its a huge mission.
Gralloching, lardering all done centrally with a meat inspector present and game dealer pickup arranged - animals straight into game dealers truck.
Hunts I have been are not big commercial hunts, much more farmers / local forester type hunts. 20 to 30 guns, a dozen beaters and dog trackers. Start at 7am with guns onto their stands. All shooting stops at 2pm leaving enough daylight for follow ups if required. Everything is usually into larder wagon by 5.30 to 6pm. Then the fun starts with lots of food and drink.
Following week the hunt is somewhere else.
I have been on a few hunts on the edge of a major german city. The woods are closed for the day of the hunts. Kind of odd being on stand on the edge of suburbia with locals watching and cheering when you shoot a pig.
I'd have to disagree that driven hunts are the only real way to control deer, thousands of deer are shot per year in Scotland by nightshooting along side normal morning and evening outings, you just aren't going to get those numbers with a couple driven hunts in each area.
Also having a couple of driven hunts then doing nothing for the rest of the year is no use at all for people that are suffering with deer damage.
Yes night shooting is difficult but get the right people doing it then alot of deer get shot, extracted and lardered in a timely manner.
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I've been on many deer movement days and I'm the only one to point out that the ratio of deer for man hours is horrendous. I find using all the legal tools in the box and being surgical with your efforts I can get it under 1.5 hours per deer.
I don't mind deer movement days for a social but I've never been on one that's a efficient use of man hours.
I also find the average quality of the carcass is lower as well.
deer movement days
Next we will be calling a skinning knife a hide removal tool used by a trained operator
Gambrel > Deer elevation device
Roe sack > Shouldered utility container
What ever next
I’m not sure that’s true if your objective is population control, habitat maintenance or commercial venison production. In all of these, the largest expense will be labour, so that needs to be minimised. Man hours is absolutely critical in any operation that needs to work to a budget or generate a profit. Most available data indicate that the only deer stalking that currently generates enough revenue to cover the cost of the manpower involved is trophy stag/buck stalking, where the trophy attracts additional fees. Contract culling and the other forms of non-trophy stalking that require paying the stalker all run at a substantial loss to whoever is paying, precisely because they have to pay whoever is doing it enough to make it worth their while.
The continental driven hunt system works because (1) it is largely recreational, with most involved not billing for their time; (2) because deer density is mostly substantially lower than it is here; (3) because there is a far higher proportion of state owned land, and (4) because it’s centralised and controlled by the state in a way that we would find unacceptable. It also relies on having mass logistics in place to support it all - in a way that is simply not economically viable in the remoter parts of Scotland.
It is a system that works given the particular traditions, land ownership patterns and laws in the area. To move from what we have to a continental system would require a fundamental change to the law and to cultural attitudes. It’s actually not far off the philosophy underlying what NatureScot are attempting with their DMNROs - and look how well that’s going down.
Nice license's are easy to get in Scotland - just need to comply with the conditions - principally a} be accompanied, b} inform police (easy via pro forma email) c} have a dogLots of talk about night shooting, I’m sure much of it not legal
Back in the day, it was very difficult to obtain a “night licence”. If it came to that, it just required more time and effort or more people during legal hours. Controversial I’m sure, but the same applies today, people should put more effort in or if they cannot, allow a few others to help out, maybe giving sone who struggle to secure land an opportunity
I think applications for night licences are just the easy way out, doesn’t involve any stalking skills, just a method of killing deer
It is also another way that over time will have a big negative effect on the larger species that roam over different areas. Maybe I should apply for a night licence to shoot the neighbours pheasants that come to roost in woodland on my lease, they are invasive, too many of them and detrimental to the environment apparently
OK its not stalking in the true sense but its a useful tool where number need to be controlled and often the only safe way in areas of high public access (which make the deer nocturnal anyway)
Do you honestly think a driven hunt would work In the vast majority of Scotland???? There is hardy a corner where you don't see regular public access taking.
Yes would be no different to fox drives and if we are serious about tackling Sika drives would be a good tool to use, don't think it would resemble a European driven hunt day much though, more just strategic placement of guns round plantations and have a few beaters to move them.
Hmm, you obviously don't stalk/live where I do
More foxes would be shot using thermal rifle scopes and thermal spotters than in fox drives and the same would go for deer I'm afraid.
That's what they have been called since I started and I used to be invited on about a dozen different estates every year to do them over the south of England. So not a one off name used by one place.deer movement days
Next we will be calling a skinning knife a hide removal tool used by a trained operator
Gambrel > Deer elevation device
Roe sack > Shouldered utility container
What ever next
I think they were called that because you don't drive the deer to be shot on the move but deer gently walked out areas normally over many thousands of acres to keep people shooting at static deer all day.
The last one i did was over roughly 8k acres.
Yeh, I had a guy saying he had been on a driven hunt. I think he said there were 8 people and he got the only 1 deer. He thought it was very efficient. I was polite and didn't say anything
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