electric cars,,,,

I meant when cutting parts of the car apart u don't want to be slicing through un used airbags as the propellant can go off as u cut. Or atleast that's wot the fire boys train for.

Atleast with fire u can see wot ur dealing with, can u guarantee 100% off time that battery will never short out against body work or if a cable is severed.
With a hybrid surely u have both to worry about.
When I was on cockpit development we had a trained explosives man with us for the airbag development he told me if the boyoos from over the water ever collected a transit full of them from scrapyards the combined brisance makes a mighty booom.
 
An airbag is inflated by a small gas cartridge (similar to that used in a soda stream) - there is no hazard in cutting through an uninflated air bag, you'd need to cut through the gas cartridge and that's a rather small target.
As I said, when an an electric vehicle is involved in an accident where more than a certain G force us experienced, the battery (which is a sealed steel box which also contains isolating switches) is disconnected from the rest of the vehicle. Rescue crews having to cut people out of an electrically powered vehicle face no additional hazards if they cut through the cables coming from the battery, because the battery has already been disconnected from those cables.


Cheers

Bruce
They are not small sparklets gas cartridges they are filled with a similar to cartridge primer compound, all very technical.
 
The worst case scenario "what ifs?" of electric cars and batteries in this thread remind me of the old chestnuts being bandied about as a negative reaction to compulsory seat belt wear...

"Seat belts are dangerous...there was this bloke that only survived going under neath an artic tanker which ripped the roof off his car, by being able to throw himself sideways because he wasn't wearing his seat belt...."

It is the everyday advantages rather than the exceptions which should weigh heavy. In the seat belt issue it is the few weeks off work and the discomfort following bruised ribs and knees from millions of 30MPH shunts that they help prevent...the relatively rare head-on at a combined speed of 140 not so much.

Alan
 
An airbag is inflated by a small gas cartridge (similar to that used in a soda stream) - there is no hazard in cutting through an uninflated air bag, you'd need to cut through the gas cartridge and that's a rather small target.
As I said, when an an electric vehicle is involved in an accident where more than a certain G force us experienced, the battery (which is a sealed steel box which also contains isolating switches) is disconnected from the rest of the vehicle. Rescue crews having to cut people out of an electrically powered vehicle face no additional hazards if they cut through the cables coming from the battery, because the battery has already been disconnected from those cables.


Cheers

Bruce

That's good to know, I'll tell my fireman mates not to worry then.
It's them that spend a lot of time training for that.
 
I have fireman mates as well, some of them fairly senior, and yes they do train to enter all sorts of vehicles, including electric vehicles, and they learn about the relative risk that any given part of the vehicle poses.
The possibility of cutting into the airbag cartridge comes pretty low on the list of things, as does being electrocuted by the battery.
The biggest risk by far, is fire from the fuel in the vehicle, and of course, a pure electric car doesn't have any petrol or diesel.
The risk of a fire from the battery is far, far lower than the risk of fire from the petrol or diesel in the tank, or elsewhere in the fuel system.
Every vehicle which has a petrol or diesel engine has at least one fuel pump. If the vehicle is involved in a collision and a fuel line ruptures and the fuel pump is still running, the you'll have flammable liquid spraying around, and it's only needs to come into contact with the hot exhaust (something else an electric vehicle doesn't have) to start a fire

Cheers

Bruce
 
There are many recorded occurrences of mobile phones seemingly bursting into flames, and they contain one small battery.
how does this become safer when there are literally thousands linked together?
and do you think there should be some form of training provided regarding the safe procedures for operation and recharging.
you have to admit there are some pretty dumb people out there. I mean if you don't know not to put petrol in a diesel vehicle or vise-versa can they be expected to commit equally dumb stunts when operating an electric vehicle.
 
Although both mobile phones and electric cars use lithium ion rechargeable batteries, their detailed chemistries are different because they are designed for very different tasks.
Mobile phone batteries are essentially designed to be a consumable which needs replacing every couple of years (or more frequently for heavy users).
Every rechargeable battery has a characteristic known as the "C" rate. This is a value that is used as a reference when discussing charge and discharge rates. For example, a 10 amp hour battery has a C rate of 10.
If the manufacturer recommends a maximum charge rate for that battery of 0.5C, then the battery should not be charged at more than 5 amps.
Similarly, if the manufacturer recommends a maximum discharge rate of 5C, then the maximum current drawn from the battery when powering a load should not exceed 50 amps
The relatively short life and higher risk of fire from mobile phone batteries is due to them being charged and discharged at rates much higher than their C value - often 5-10C
Electric vehicle battery packs typically operate at much lower rates, frequently less than 1C, and this lower rate of charge and discharge is one of the major factors giving electric vehicle batteries much, much longer lives and much, much lower risk of fire than mobile phone batteries.

Did you receive any training on how to put petrol or diesel into your vehicle? - no I didn't think so, and neither did I.
Yes, people do dumb things when refuelling their vehicles - I saw a guy at a motorway service station in Italy which had the locking triggers on the pumps. He was happily smoking a fag while speaking to someone and didn't notice the petrol overflowing from the tank of his BMW. That could have been disastrous for himself and everyone around him.
If it had been an electric car, that simply could not have happened
If you look at the connector(s) used for charging an electric vehicle, you'll see that there several connector pins. Only 2 are needed to carry the charging current, the others are there so that the car and the charger can communicate with each other. This communication ensures that the charging current does not start to flow until both the car and charger have "agreed" on how much current will be allowed to flow.
Before current starts to flow, the connectors are mechanically locked together so that they cannot be separated when current is flowing.
Basically, the safety features included in all electric vehicle charging systems take into account the fact that when charging, the vehicle is usually unattended.

The energy content of 1 gallon of petrol is around 144 million joules. So a typical car with 10 gallons in the tank has around 1440 million joules of energy available to convert into kinetic energy to drive the car along the road.
The energy content of a 50KWH battery in an average electric car is 180 million joules i.e roughly the same energy as contained in about 1.25 gallons of petrol.
The reason electric cars can go as far as they do on their batteries is because they convert the chemical energy in their fuel into the movement of the vehicle (kinetic energy) far more efficiently than a fossil fuelled vehicle.
The best modern cars convert about 20-35% of the energy in their fuel into kinetic energy, the rest is lost as heat, and of course, the fuel is used up and new fuel has to be obtained.
An electric car converts 80-95% of the energy in the battery into kinetic energy, and of course, when the battery is recharged, it can do it all over again and again
FYI, the energy content of 1Kg of TNT is around 4.2 million joules, so a 10 gallon tank of petrol contains the same energy as 6 tons of TNT (that's about 3 times the bomb load of a B17)

Operating and charging an electric vehicle is considerably safer than operating a fossil fuelled vehicle, if only because you're not carrying around all that flammable liquid.

The Nissan Leaf and the Renault Zoe were effectively the first electric vehicles available in the UK and EU which were in any way affordable (Teslas were available, but out of the financial reach of the vast majority of people)
(BTW UK and EU Nissan Leafs and their batteries are manufactured at the Nissan Plant in Sunderland)
When the Leaf and the Zoe were first introduced (around 2011), no-one really knew how long the batteries would last so, to give owners some peace of mind, both vehicles could be purchased at a low price that did not include the battery. The battery was rented and a monthly rental, based on annual mileage was paid. The deal was, that if the battery capacity dropped below 70% of its new value, a new battery would be supplied at no cost to the owner.
Nissan dropped the battery rental deal after a few years when it realised that the batteries were not degrading and people wanted to buy out the rental contract and just keep the car with the original battery.
Renault persisted with the rental battery scheme and if you look on Autotrader, you'll find Renault Zoes with the same age, spec and mileage in two distinct price bands - the cheap ones that still have a rented battery (and which if you bought would require you continue to pay the monthly rental), and more expensive ones, where the battery has been purchased and there is no monthly rental.
Because battery life has now been shown to be much better than initially anticipated, Renault no longer offers the option of battery rental on new Zoes.


Cheers

Bruce
 
Thanks for that, every day is a learning day!.
OK, you are someone who has worked in the motor industry for many years - how do you rate the safety of electric cars compared to fossil fuelled cars?

Cheers

Bruce
I was a contract engineer so when my job was done I left the project so never ever had the feedback.
 
That is somewhat a case of comparing chalk to cheese. Your battery has about 1% of the capacity of a better-range electric vehicle, and I understand to not even be a lithium-ion battery anyway.
A Prius is also different being primarily a petrol car, and the degeneration of the battery is a less limiting factor than in a pure electric car.
My understanding is that a big electric vehicle battery may cost 30 grand or so.. Presumably this may reduce in future, but the current situation is that manufacturers are not being transparent about battery costs and lifespan, and that battery failure will effectively write off vehicles.
Chap I know services and repairs fork trucks.
He says forks use the same type batteries as cars and have done so for some years. He also says the average lifespan of fork batteries is 5years.
Just repeating his words.
Ken.
 
Chap I know services and repairs fork trucks.
He says forks use the same type batteries as cars and have done so for some years. He also says the average lifespan of fork batteries is 5years.
Just repeating his words.
Ken.
Fork trucks use lead acid batteries but they are now offering lit ion batterys.
 
Chap I know services and repairs fork trucks.
He says forks use the same type batteries as cars and have done so for some years. He also says the average lifespan of fork batteries is 5years.
Just repeating his words.
Ken.

Fork trucks have traditionally used lead acid batteries, not the lithium ion batteries used in electric cars.
The 12 volt battery in your car is lead acid - how old is it?

Cheers

Bruce
 
As a young officer in HM forces we got a lot of strategic lectures

Position papers and 'what iffs' are written all the time so that Gov's have a 'panic card' to read when the brown stuff hits

We used to get regular briefings on the 'what iffs' in the forces

A biggie was what happens when oil runs out

Oil - the life blood of the 20th C was akin to having free energy

Much effort was (and I guess still is) directed toward managing the consequences of 'free energy' running out

This is exacerbated by an exploding population

Our western Capitalist system is fundamentally flawed - it requires ever increasing expansion to cover over those fundamental cracks

The problem with this strategy is that everything upon which it is based is finite

Population is not finite - as we have the need for increased consumption (no probs there) but a finite set of resources causes us some concern for this capitalist model

How then to manage the populations acceptance of fundamental change?

The answer?

Sell them something that they can believe in - keep pushing it no matter, even if it is based on nonsense

Conspiracy theory? perhaps

However mankind has a history of this

We have been pushing man-made religions since the dawn of time

We are merely witnessing another one being borne

Globalisation is a facet of this new religion as is global warming (after all the best lies are a little bit of truth exaggerated to the extreme)

Unfortunately with this new religion comes a level of totalitarian control we have never seen before

I'd sooner the trials of Darwinism than bow to totalitarianism
 
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It is part of a monologue geared towards a political outcome

I don't know quite where the truth lies but I do know - because we were briefed on it - that it was to be used as part of a strategy to exact a political outcome
 
I worked on the UK strategy for EV's and on the charging infrastructue.
Biggest problem for installation was one of ownership. Generally speaking much of the apparent public realm in shopping centres. public car parks and the like is privately owned so difficult to gain approval for instalation. The street often lacked appropriate power infrastructure to use as a feed.
There is still a suggestion that the battery reserve of the UK EV's can be used to support smart grid. Basically you would recieve a payment for lending your battery to the grid at peak times.
The first cars in the UK (back in the C19th were EV's with a range of 100 miles.
 
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