All the 17s are good mate. Most things are when used in for the right setting.
End of the 17wsm in the UK?
- Thread starter User00048
- Start date
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
I never forget being introduced to 17Rem.
Finger nail groups. Magpies at 300yds.
Foxes at 300 yds. A running left to right fox at 300yds!
The only time it struggled was in gusty wind and rain. Brought it's range down that's all.
It is certainly a screamer. Different animal to the hmr or wsm that's for sure. The little rims are awesome for night shooting, been great replacements for the 22s from possums to wallabies.
Neddle
Well-Known Member
204?
Neddle
Well-Known Member
200metres if you're a confident shot
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
To be honest until this thread I had never heard of the 17 WSM. I thought it was a typo till I looked it up.
It looks an interesting little cartridge. But like so many cartridges in all the different calibres they are introduced to fill a niche that probably doesn’t really exist. Most gain a little following but then disappear into obscurity. The US firearms market is large enough that it is worthwhile the ammo manufacturers doing a run, from time to time of even pretty obscure cartridges. I suspect there are more licensed firearms holders in each of the US states than there in the whole of the UK.
But with all the fun and games of exporting and then importing anything firearm related I can absolutely understand why UK importers don’t sink their hard earned cash into products where there is limited demand.
Of the many new cartridges introduced in the UK in the last 20 years I would suggest only 2 have become mainstream - namely the 17 HMR and the 6.5 Creedmoor.
The 17 HMR has become the go to small vermin cartridge for many, and given that it works with non toxic ammo and is cheaper to run I suspect it will remain. There have been ammo issues in the past.
The 6.5 CM is a very nicely balanced cartridge that pretty much does everything the 243, 270 and 308 can do, and is very much becoming a go to all round cartridge for hunting and target shooting.
It looks an interesting little cartridge. But like so many cartridges in all the different calibres they are introduced to fill a niche that probably doesn’t really exist. Most gain a little following but then disappear into obscurity. The US firearms market is large enough that it is worthwhile the ammo manufacturers doing a run, from time to time of even pretty obscure cartridges. I suspect there are more licensed firearms holders in each of the US states than there in the whole of the UK.
But with all the fun and games of exporting and then importing anything firearm related I can absolutely understand why UK importers don’t sink their hard earned cash into products where there is limited demand.
Of the many new cartridges introduced in the UK in the last 20 years I would suggest only 2 have become mainstream - namely the 17 HMR and the 6.5 Creedmoor.
The 17 HMR has become the go to small vermin cartridge for many, and given that it works with non toxic ammo and is cheaper to run I suspect it will remain. There have been ammo issues in the past.
The 6.5 CM is a very nicely balanced cartridge that pretty much does everything the 243, 270 and 308 can do, and is very much becoming a go to all round cartridge for hunting and target shooting.
17HMR was a success because the chamber pressure it produces can be handled without any re-design of existing 22 actions.
The 17WSM is a much higher pressure cartridge (IIRC it's based on .28 nail gun cartridge) and existing 22/17HMR designs can't safely handle the additional pressure.
The result was that virtually none of the major rifle manufacturers thought it cost effective to design and manufacture new actions for it.
Savage make a rifle for it and the popular consensus is that it an absolute dog of a rifle
Winchester and Ruger each make a single model of rifle for it, but they are very expensive.
If CZ, Tikka, Bergara etc had made rifles chambered for it, it could have survived and possible even thrived - but without the support of major rifle manufacturers it was always destined to become extinct
Cheers
Bruce
The 17WSM is a much higher pressure cartridge (IIRC it's based on .28 nail gun cartridge) and existing 22/17HMR designs can't safely handle the additional pressure.
The result was that virtually none of the major rifle manufacturers thought it cost effective to design and manufacture new actions for it.
Savage make a rifle for it and the popular consensus is that it an absolute dog of a rifle
Winchester and Ruger each make a single model of rifle for it, but they are very expensive.
If CZ, Tikka, Bergara etc had made rifles chambered for it, it could have survived and possible even thrived - but without the support of major rifle manufacturers it was always destined to become extinct
Cheers
Bruce
Agreed. But when you think about it, it's really just a cop out by the manufacturers. A regular, full sized short action with a rimfire bolt would be relatively easy. Coming up with a magazine, while challenging, that would feed reliably, would make it a no brainer rifle to produce. They just don't want to do it. <shrug>
Of all the manufacturers, I often wonder why Howa (with their mini action) and Tikka didn't come up with something. But what do I know?
Sometimes you can lead a horse to water....Once a manufacturer has a high pressure capable rimfire action, the world is their oyster. I'd bet you'd see a huge bump in rimfire research and cartridge offerings....
IIRC, the 17WSM appeared before the Tikka T1X rimfires went into production so you'd have thought it would not have been too much extra work to make the action strong enough to work with the 17WSM and give Tikka a jump on the market
I'd say it was an opportunity missed.
Cheers
Bruce
I'd say it was an opportunity missed.
Cheers
Bruce
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
The two big challenges with a rimfire cartridge are
1) the rim makes it a little more difficult to get reliable feeding. It’s why Paul Mauser ditched the rim and developed rimless cartridges for his bolt action rifles in the 1880’s.
2) a rimfire is a once use cartridge that cannot be reloaded. Shooters don’t mind this with the 22lr as its pennies a shot, put up with it in 17 HMR, but any more is probably a big barrier.
Comments made about switching say the CZ527 or Howa Mini Mauser to 17 WSM. Big challenge is the firing pin and bolt face. A centrefire firing pin is easy to make, and the tooling will pretty much cover every calibre. With a rimfire you have an offset pin and striker hole on the boltface. This will require seperate tooling and manufacture.
If you compare the 17 WSM with next rung up the 17 ladder, the 17 Hornet, the later is a little faster, can be reloaded and can be produced in pretty much rifle that is chambered for 22 Hornet, 222, 223 etc.
What does surprise is that little cartridges like the 5.6x28 have not gained wider acceptance as a small rifle cartridge and been necked down to 17 or .20. Similar sorts of case capacity to the Hornet, but in a modern cartridge.
But then, what is the need?. An air rifle or 22lr fills the low power, closer range use, 17 HMR for in between and then 222 / 223 covers pretty much everything else. If you need long range on foxes or for bigger predators, small deer etc then the 22-250 or 243 fills that niche.
1) the rim makes it a little more difficult to get reliable feeding. It’s why Paul Mauser ditched the rim and developed rimless cartridges for his bolt action rifles in the 1880’s.
2) a rimfire is a once use cartridge that cannot be reloaded. Shooters don’t mind this with the 22lr as its pennies a shot, put up with it in 17 HMR, but any more is probably a big barrier.
Comments made about switching say the CZ527 or Howa Mini Mauser to 17 WSM. Big challenge is the firing pin and bolt face. A centrefire firing pin is easy to make, and the tooling will pretty much cover every calibre. With a rimfire you have an offset pin and striker hole on the boltface. This will require seperate tooling and manufacture.
If you compare the 17 WSM with next rung up the 17 ladder, the 17 Hornet, the later is a little faster, can be reloaded and can be produced in pretty much rifle that is chambered for 22 Hornet, 222, 223 etc.
What does surprise is that little cartridges like the 5.6x28 have not gained wider acceptance as a small rifle cartridge and been necked down to 17 or .20. Similar sorts of case capacity to the Hornet, but in a modern cartridge.
But then, what is the need?. An air rifle or 22lr fills the low power, closer range use, 17 HMR for in between and then 222 / 223 covers pretty much everything else. If you need long range on foxes or for bigger predators, small deer etc then the 22-250 or 243 fills that niche.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
I also believe it was bad timing on Winchesters part. To come out with yet another 17 at a similar time as 17 H, HMR being and getting popular was a bad move.
Maybe if they had come out with something different like .20 or .25 it might of found a niche.
On a side not Mauser do have a stronger rimfire action in ( I forget the model number but think it is) the 301.
It has forward locking lugs .
Maybe if they had come out with something different like .20 or .25 it might of found a niche.
On a side not Mauser do have a stronger rimfire action in ( I forget the model number but think it is) the 301.
It has forward locking lugs .
I guess I was unclear with my point. Yes, making a rimfire bolt would require new tooling (that's kind of a given). My point was once a rimfire bolt was designed, it would be rather easy to cover multiple rimfire cartridges. Say something along the lines of a Marlin rimfire bolt, where the firing pin floats in the bolt head, and the hammer strikes a driving rod, that then strikes the floating firing pin in the bolt head. There's nothing new here; it's been done that way for years in a lot of rimfire rifle designs; mainly to ease manufacturing.
As for feeding, look at RimX and Voodu magazines. AICS patterned; so they have a lot of real estate to allow positioning the presentation and angle of the case to feed reliably.
As to the 5.7; yes, it's been done (ad nauseum). 17 Velociraptor immediatly comes to mind, and I know a few .20 cal variants have also been done. The issue is that the case has a VERY thin rim, which makes forming a challenge at times. I even have a Rem 700 bolt in 5.7, sitting in my project box (never did follow through with the 17 Velociraptor project).
As to need? Need has nothing to do with it. Wildcatters these days don't do it because of a need. They do it because they can. Some enjoy the uniqueness. Some enjoy the efficiency aspect of the smaller cases. Horses for courses...
Because no one is bringing it in?
Appreciate it's an older thread but I am a huge fan of 17WSM,
It could/should have been the perfect rimfire calibre for the UK for rabbits/corvids & even fox, with reach far beyond HMR but never had a chance with such poor rifle choice.
Interestingly Winchester have just unveiled their own bolt action rifle in 2024, just when Hornady have discontinued manufacture of the ammo, (which is why Edgars can't get it
)
So only American Eagle 20gn in the UK assuming that's still made & imported, so for those of us who own one please pester the Winchester ammo importer to import some.
It could/should have been the perfect rimfire calibre for the UK for rabbits/corvids & even fox, with reach far beyond HMR but never had a chance with such poor rifle choice.
Interestingly Winchester have just unveiled their own bolt action rifle in 2024, just when Hornady have discontinued manufacture of the ammo, (which is why Edgars can't get it
)So only American Eagle 20gn in the UK assuming that's still made & imported, so for those of us who own one please pester the Winchester ammo importer to import some.
I agree about the potential uses for the 17WSM
The problem is that, because it is based on a nail gun cartridge rather than any existing firearm cartridge, it develops significantly higher pressures than any of the other rimfire cartridges which meant that many existing rimfire rifles could not safely be chambered for it - resulting in the need for a new action to be developed and the cost for that process was deemed uneconomic by almost all rifle manufacturers
Cheers
Bruce
The problem is that, because it is based on a nail gun cartridge rather than any existing firearm cartridge, it develops significantly higher pressures than any of the other rimfire cartridges which meant that many existing rimfire rifles could not safely be chambered for it - resulting in the need for a new action to be developed and the cost for that process was deemed uneconomic by almost all rifle manufacturers
Cheers
Bruce
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
I suspect there are more licensed firearms holders in each of the US states than there in the whole of the UK.
Non licensed and long may it continue.
Non licensed and long may it continue.
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