EU ban on lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles

[8x57]

Plod is going to just love the shooting public having access to steel cored rifle projectiles!

Not necessarily so. While some military ammunition has a hardened steel penetrator core there are other similar bullets that are not actually designated as armour piercing. Then there are steel jacketed bullets with lead or other material cores. If these become more common place it's going to be fun in the future working out which is legal for target shooting and which isn't and almost impossible to police. It will give us plenty to debate and argue over for years to come.

 

[andyk]

I would have thought that manufacturers could bring out steel core target bullets, at least in the UK, as the wording from s5(1A)(e) is 'any ammunition for military use which consists in or incorporates a missile designed, on account of its having a jacket and hard-core, to penetrate armour plating, armour screening or body armour;'.

So a civilian designed and marketed steel core bullet, intended for target shooting would not be prohibited as is it not 'for military use' nor is it 'designed ... to penetrate armour plating...'. The provision reads as though it would have to be designed with the purpose of being armour piercing, not simply armour piercing by coincidence or accident.

Mil-surplus could run into a problem though.

Don't get me wrong, the aim must be to avoid any restriction on lead target ammo, but there does seem to be potential for target bullets to be made primarily of steel rather than solid copper.

 

[8x57]

Steel jacketed with a sintered core?

 

[harrygrey382]

So is the ban just the sale of or use of as well? Could everyone get into casting?

 

[8x57]

So is the ban just the sale of or use of as well? Could everyone get into casting?

Harry the BASC press release says-

"The European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) has announced proposals for a near-total ban on the sale and use of lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles. This follows the publication last week of EU regulations that will ban lead shot in and around wetlands from February 2023 onwards."

 

[Roestalker39]

The European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) has announced proposals for a near-total ban on the sale and use of lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles.

For a BASC briefing on the proposals see:

European lead ammunition ban proposed

Restrictions on lead ammunition production in the EU could have an impact on UK trade and the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting.

basc.org.uk

For a briefing by the European Federation of Hunting Associations (FACE) see:

Ban on lead in ammunition proposed

Today, the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) has published its proposal for further EU (and EEA)-wide restrictions on the use of lead in ammunition for hunting, outdoor sports shooting and fishing.

www.face.eu

Basc welcomes

 

[rms364]

Good excuse to bring back bow hunting I suppose. Then we’ll weed out the real stalkers from the rest. I can hear your key boards tapping from here!

 

[Roestalker39]

If we follow suit for predator and pest rifle ammo we have been well and truely stitched up

Of course we have ! just far too many happily went the lead free route like sheep , there is no future for shooting not when we as a community bend over and say “ I’ve brought my own lube “ ,

 

[Bowland blades]

Target use aside I suspect 90% + of the .22 LR rounds shot in this country are subsonic.

If I want to use a supersonic rimfire I’ll use one of my WMRs. View attachment 192110

Very useful for fox but the main reason for their use (magnum rimfire with highly frangible bullets) is reduced ricochet risk over a .22 LR. This will go out of the window with copper.

Copper is toxic, zinc is toxic, lead is toxic but very suited to ballistically efficient expanding bullets and air gun pellets. Let’s stick with lead!

I see your reasoning , however more velocity (energy ) is more harm than good when it comes to ricochet . The biggest issue with subsonic is people belive you only have a ricochet when you hear it scream away as a mangled subsonic lump of very un aerodynamic lead (therefore people figure 22 lr is the worst ) however that's actually telling you that bullet ain't going far after its initial impact and its not going that fast . The transonic ricochet id definitely the more dangerous one . If 17 bullets turned to dust for instance they would be pretty useless at killing stuff . 22 magnum is the similar type of bullet at a higher speed therefore the resulting ricochet has to be more dangerous (you just won't hear it if its doing say 1100 fps ! Once its gone far enough to be sub sonic it will be out of audible range of the shooter
Sticking with lead , unfortunately is only going to be a short term thing ! The whole world is changing not just tge EU , its just the rest of the world isn't run by drunken numpties has been never actual made it types . Its happening in the USA do we need to know more than that last fact ? Difference is America is a proper democracy not a dictatorship in disguise

 

[8x57]

Good excuse to bring back bow hunting I suppose. Then we’ll weed out the real stalkers from the rest. I can hear your key boards tapping from here!

But only if you can prove that the shafts are made from sustainable timber ethically sourced.

 

[25 Sharps]

I see your reasoning , however more velocity (energy ) is more harm than good when it comes to ricochet . The biggest issue with subsonic is people belive you only have a ricochet when you hear it scream away as a mangled subsonic lump of very un aerodynamic lead (therefore people figure 22 lr is the worst ) however that's actually telling you that bullet ain't going far after its initial impact and its not going that fast . The transonic ricochet id definitely the more dangerous one . If 17 bullets turned to dust for instance they would be pretty useless at killing stuff . 22 magnum is the similar type of bullet at a higher speed therefore the resulting ricochet has to be more dangerous (you just won't hear it if its doing say 1100 fps ! Once its gone far enough to be sub sonic it will be out of audible range of the shooter
Sticking with lead , unfortunately is only going to be a short term thing ! The whole world is changing not just tge EU , its just the rest of the world isn't run by drunken numpties has been never actual made it types . Its happening in the USA do we need to know more than that last fact ? Difference is America is a proper democracy not a dictatorship in disguise

I think you have misunderstood my point!

I am well aware that more velocity equates to more energy, that bullets that zing off are tumbling and therefore bleeding energy quickly and that richoets that you are not aware of happen and are more dangerous than those you can hear!

My point is velocity and a frangible bullet is far safer than a slow bullet that holds together and only distorts slightly, any body who thinks that .17 HMR bullet break up on a blade of grass is quite frankly stupid or doesn't do much shooting!! But shot at a suitable angle at the ground the bullet will normally either break up in the animal or in contact with the ground, it does not have to turn to dust (like Barnes Varmint grenades are supposed to). High velocity and a thin jacket is far less of a ricochet risk than low velocity lead or high velocity solid, that is just a fact of life.

That fox last night was shot with one of these

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They are shaped like an egg cup, the expand so violently that pass through on rabbits are rare and I would not even consider a chest shot on a fox as they may break up on a rib and not kill instantly.



You clearly don't know your rimfires all that well, WMR is the parent case of HMR, it shoots a heavier bullet (25-50 grains) and therefore has much less muzzle velocity than the HMR, still, using a suitably constructed bullet at high velocity (relative term, but for a rimfire) greatly reduces ricochet risk though it will never completely remove it.

My point is supersonic there are already alternatives wise , Hornady's NTX for example in HMR and WMR, but for subsonic the .22LR will always be king and 0.22 LR moderated with subs it is a very useful vermin round for all sorts of situations where sound of a supersonic round may be an issue.

 

[andyk]

Of course we have ! just far too many happily went the lead free route like sheep , there is no future for shooting not when we as a community bend over and say “ I’ve brought my own lube “ ,

Genuine question, but how do you suggest the 'orgs' handle lead ammunition? Do you think that if they all stood their ground and resisted any restriction then we might expect to be able to continue to use lead ammunition (in all its forms) indefinitely?

For what it's worth, I'm concerned about being forced to use non-lead. I've dabbled with non-lead ammo on paper and its fine but I remain concerned as to how effective it is and I'm even more concerned that a massive hike in the price of copper (which seems likely as the world moves to electrify everything) could start to put people off shooting, particularly if non-lead is mandated for higher volume uses such as vermin or targets.

However, unless you truly think that the shooting community can successfully oppose every attempt to restrict lead use then the shooting community may be better served by looking to manage its own destiny. That doesn't mean rolling over every time but it will mean choosing our battles.

 

[Bowland blades]

I think you have misunderstood my point!

I am well aware that more velocity equates to more energy, that bullets that zing off are tumbling and therefore bleeding energy quickly and that richoets that you are not aware of happen and are more dangerous than those you can hear!

My point is velocity and a frangible bullet is far safer than a slow bullet that holds together and only distorts slightly, any body who thinks that .17 HMR bullet break up on a blade of grass is quite frankly stupid or doesn't do much shooting!! But shot at a suitable angle at the ground the bullet will normally either break up in the animal or in contact with the ground, it does not have to turn to dust (like Barnes Varmint grenades are supposed to). High velocity and a thin jacket is far less of a ricochet risk than low velocity lead or high velocity solid, that is just a fact of life.

That fox last night was shot with one of these

Buy Maxi-Mag TNT 22 WMR Ammo | 30 Grain, 2200 FPS | CCI Ammunition

Shopping for the Maxi-Mag TNT, 22 WMR, 30 Grain, TNT Jacketed Hollow Point, 2200 fps - Learn more about the latest Maxi-Mag TNT and other hunting or shooting gear at CCI.

www.cci-ammunition.com

They are shaped like an egg cup, the expand so violently that pass through on rabbits are rare and I would not even consider a chest shot on a fox as they may break up on a rib and not kill instantly.



You clearly don't know your rimfires all that well, WMR is the parent case of HMR, it shoots a heavier bullet (25-50 grains) and therefore has much less muzzle velocity than the HMR, still, using a suitably constructed bullet at high velocity (relative term, but for a rimfire) greatly reduces ricochet risk though it will never completely remove it.

My point is supersonic there are already alternatives wise , Hornady's NTX for example in HMR and WMR, but for subsonic the .22LR will always be king and 0.22 LR moderated with subs it is a very useful vermin round for all sorts of situations where sound of a supersonic round may be an issue.

Got to say your response to my response actually seems to contradict itself speed is what creates energy in a given object . Two 40 grain objects one at a higher speed it ain't going to be tgecslower one with least energy. Two objects at different speeds the lighter one with a higher muzzle energy in tge case of tge 22 lr andvtge 17 hmr ? The hmr is the most dangerous in terms of a ricochet accident due to its kinetic energy. Thats just basic physics
I actually found the hmr quite ricochet prone , just never heard one because they where all supersonic . Not a one did I hear ! Actually offered to demonstrate to one feo in a safe area .
The answer to ricochet prevention is of course careful consideration of tge shot chosen or not . Energy is the measure of potential though . Any bullet fragile enough to " turn to dust " as they say would be utterly useless for killing stuff. Case in point the fairgrounds of Blackpool etc used to have special clay mix and powered lead rounds manufactured . Tge old Lancashire rfd network sold gazillions of them

 

[Roestalker39]

Genuine question, but how do you suggest the 'orgs' handle lead ammunition? Do you think that if they all stood their ground and resisted any restriction then we might expect to be able to continue to use lead ammunition (in all its forms) indefinitely?

For what it's worth, I'm concerned about being forced to use non-lead. I've dabbled with non-lead ammo on paper and its fine but I remain concerned as to how effective it is and I'm even more concerned that a massive hike in the price of copper (which seems likely as the world moves to electrify everything) could start to put people off shooting, particularly if non-lead is mandated for higher volume uses such as vermin or targets.

However, unless you truly think that the shooting community can successfully oppose every attempt to restrict lead use then the shooting community may be better served by looking to manage its own destiny. That doesn't mean rolling over every time but it will mean choosing our battles.

Yes stand our ground and resist , I know it’s an alien concept but the bending over and capitulation doesn’t seem to be helping does it .....

 

[andyk]

That doesn't answer my question though, do you think that the shooting community, if it chose to stand its ground on all aspects of lead ammunition, could successfully prevent any further restrictions?

 

[Roestalker39]

That doesn't answer my question though, do you think that the shooting community, if it chose to stand its ground on all aspects of lead ammunition, could successfully prevent any further restrictions?

Yes ! If we actually show we have some fight in us then yes I truly do , sad thing is too many are all too willing to give up , as evidenced by all those going “ lead free “

 

[zambezi]

Genuine question, but how do you suggest the 'orgs' handle lead ammunition? Do you think that if they all stood their ground and resisted any restriction then we might expect to be able to continue to use lead ammunition (in all its forms) indefinitely?

Petition your shooting org to support the following:

• No restriction on the use of lead ammunition for target shooting in any caliber of rifle, air rifle or shotgun
• No restriction on the use of lead ammunition for pest control in any caliber of rifle, air rifle or shotgun
• Non-toxic ammunition to be used for all game not consumed by the shooter's immediate household

 

[CarlW]

That doesn't answer my question though, do you think that the shooting community, if it chose to stand its ground on all aspects of lead ammunition, could successfully prevent any further restrictions?

Changing sides because the other side are winning is not a characteristic I can admire in a man or in an organisation.

I have two types of scouts working at our place: those that run and those that fight. I know which ones I want to be standing next to when the odds are against us.

 

[Roestalker39]

Petition your shooting org to support the following:

• No restriction on the use of lead ammunition for target shooting in any caliber of rifle, air rifle or shotgun
• No restriction on the use of lead ammunition for pest control in any caliber of rifle, air rifle or shotgun
• Non-toxic ammunition to be used for all game not consumed by the shooter's immediate household

In full agreement apart from the last point

 

[8x57]

Yes stand our ground and resist , I know it’s an alien concept but the bending over and capitulation doesn’t seem to be helping does it .....

Nice sentiment which I support but where are we going to source ammunition and reloading components from in the not too distant future if Europe has gone entirely lead free. Don't assume the U.S.A. because the American military have already started down the lead free route with some military ranges already being designated lead free and lead free small arms ammunition being developed.

Ultimately we will be dictated to by availability. I can't see there being too many ammunition manufacturers supporting just the limited U.K. market.