EU ban on lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles

[CarlW]

What about eagles consuming grallochs on Scottish hills.

Don't gut-shoot them.

 

[bowji john]

There was strong science to show that lead in petrol was harming children. There is no science to show that lead in game is harming anybody.

Lead tetraethyl is organic lead and as a component of engine exhaust is in gaseous or a fume state - much easier to enter the body as it is absorbed through the semi permeable membrane of the lungs

Of all the routes of body entry for inorganic lead, ingestion is the least effective

The dose you are likely to acquire from eating lead shot game is, I suspect, so trivial as to be insignificant

A lead bullet that kills the animal is not going to be absorbed by a dead animal so it would have to be eaten as part of a disintegrated bullet or in lead pellet form

You would have to be eating a lot of meat shot this way in order to ingest sufficient lead to cause harm

Lead is not the reason for their attempts at banning the ammo - it is one of the mechanisms they have adopted in order to attack shooting

It is part of this orgy of handwringing that the EU has embarked upon in this new religion of the environment

 

[andyk]

Precisely. I'm not talking about Condors; I'm talking about the argument that one hears from UK agitators (and a lot of UK stalkers) that the Condor experience is relevant here.

Quite so, and I should have realised you'd know (I'm in a keyboard happy mood today!). I too am unsure as to how much of a problem gralloch alone can be.

There was strong science to show that lead in petrol was harming children. There is no science to show that lead in game is harming anybody, and - even if there were - eating game is a choice; breathing is not.

Agreed, but logic left this argument long ago.

 

[CarlW]

Agreed, but logic left this argument long ago.

It did on their side; it shouldn't on ours.

 

[Apthorpe]

What I am saying is that I don’t think we should be putting game into the human food chain that contains lead, nor do I think we should be leaving lead remains left in the wilds for other critters to eat.

And yes I have a real interest in old and vintage guns so yes there is somewhat of a quandry.

I think for mainstream rifle hunting, especially anything that is going to game dealers should be shot with lead free ammunition. Modern day non- toxic ammo works well, and plenty of evidence to support this.

The same should apply to high volume game shooting. Ten years steel cartridges were crap. But for Wildfowling i now use high speed steel through a modern semi auto. This kills ducks and geese well.

Game shooting, again in the last 18 months there are now plenty of new eco shotshells on the market, and they are suitable for older guns. Happily use then in my AyA. Would I use them in my 100 year old Alex Martin sidelock - not sure - I would probably use Bismuth. Yes they are expensive but its a gun I use on special occasions.

And if I was shooting lots of driven game, chances are I would be using a modern over and under that will be steel shot proofed.

But I think there can be room for lead in older historic guns, but any game shot would have to be for personal consumption, and not to be sold into the general market.

I would draw a parallel with leaded petrol that is still available to run old vintage cars and aeroplanes.

This is interesting because try as I might I cannot yet find any suitable steel cartridge for my AYA. "Standard" steel cartridges with whatever type of wad are ballistically inferior. This is not a controversial statement. The laws of physics are inviolable. A larger pellet travelling at a slower velocity than a lead pellet of equal mass cannot possibly have equal terminal effect. It's simply impossible.
To substitute for a typical game load of 32g of 5, there is no steel equivalent available on the market, and it is in fact impossible that an equivalent could exist in future.

 

[Jagare]

And lead in soil is then carried into plant material. Not much an issue in the wilds, but could well be in heavily shot over arable land that is then used to grow vegetables.

Research in Sweden showed that lead in its fast form was no threat to the environment. Lead in vegi's from lead shot or bullets? Really? That sounds like really clutching at straws. Lead free Lemmings all rushing to throw them selves over the cliff. Where did this self destructive tendency come from in UK hunters and shooters?

 

[Heym SR20]

This is interesting because try as I might I cannot yet find any suitable steel cartridge for my AYA. "Standard" steel cartridges with whatever type of wad are ballistically inferior. This is not a controversial statement. The laws of physics are inviolable. A larger pellet travelling at a slower velocity than a lead pellet of equal mass cannot possibly have equal terminal effect. It's simply impossible.
To substitute for a typical game load of 32g of 5, there is no steel equivalent available on the market, and it is in fact impossible that an equivalent could exist in future.

Have a read of Gamebore eco ammo and also Steel Shot Performance

I will freely admit that this season, given Covid, I haven't had a single day Pheasant shooting so have n't tried these yet at all. And the second article above, shows how you can make steel equivalent cartridge that gives same sorts energy per pellet and pellet density at normal shotgunning distances. The one downside is that you do have a tighter pattern so you need to be a little more accurate.

 

[Heym SR20]

Lead tetraethyl is organic lead and as a component of engine exhaust is in gaseous or a fume state - much easier to enter the body as it is absorbed through the semi permeable membrane of the lungs

Of all the routes of body entry for inorganic lead, ingestion is the least effective

The dose you are likely to acquire from eating lead shot game is, I suspect, so trivial as to be insignificant

A lead bullet that kills the animal is not going to be absorbed by a dead animal so it would have to be eaten as part of a disintegrated bullet or in lead pellet form

You would have to be eating a lot of meat shot this way in order to ingest sufficient lead to cause harm

Lead is not the reason for their attempts at banning the ammo - it is one of the mechanisms they have adopted in order to attack shooting

It is part of this orgy of handwringing that the EU has embarked upon in this new religion of the environment

Studies show that as little as 25nmols / per litre of lead in your blood is a significant risk and factor for Leukaemia. 25 nmols is equivalent to about 10 micro grams of lead.

Given that we have about 5 litres of blood in the human body, that lead dissolves (albeit slowly) in stomach acid, you don't need to ingest very much lead over your lifetime to potentially have a major effect. If you consider a lead bullet is about 10grams in weight and there is quite substantial splatter of lead - probably about 2 grams - across the carcass and into the meat - how much lead is in those venison sausages made from bruised meat so that the game dealer / butcher can maximise yield on a carcass?

And there are numerous scientific papers that show ingesting lead is harmful - but most are looking at immediate toxicity rather than long term effects.

I have put links elsewhere in this and other threads - go and read the evidence.

 

[User00025]

No, there is a big difference.

Yep they die as the steel rusts,flakes, and perforates their gut.

 

[Apthorpe]

Have a read of Gamebore eco ammo and also Steel Shot Performance

I will freely admit that this season, given Covid, I haven't had a single day Pheasant shooting so have n't tried these yet at all. And the second article above, shows how you can make steel equivalent cartridge that gives same sorts energy per pellet and pellet density at normal shotgunning distances. The one downside is that you do have a tighter pattern so you need to be a little more accurate.

I have read these, and am familiar with similar data. Given that we're in approximate agreement on the data, the only issue is that these tables quote steel at slightly higher velocity than found in UK cartridges.
I'd still love to know where you're getting steel cartridges in 2 3/4 inch, size 3, 44grammes? And you're finding them OK to shoot?

 

[User00025]

Studies show that as little as 25nmols / per litre of lead in your blood is a significant risk and factor for Leukaemia. 25 nmols is equivalent to about 10 micro grams of lead.

Given that we have about 5 litres of blood in the human body, that lead dissolves (albeit slowly) in stomach acid, you don't need to ingest very much lead over your lifetime to potentially have a major effect. If you consider a lead bullet is about 10grams in weight and there is quite substantial splatter of lead - probably about 2 grams - across the carcass and into the meat - how much lead is in those venison sausages made from bruised meat so that the game dealer / butcher can maximise yield on a carcass?

And there are numerous scientific papers that show ingesting lead is harmful - but most are looking at immediate toxicity rather than long term effects.

I have put links elsewhere in this and other threads - go and read the evidence.

I think I must be dead then, the lead water pipes for perhaps Sixty years, lead soldiers sucked as a kid whilst planning battles, lead based paint used on numerous occasions.
Not even counting the traces that some nasty people introduced by means of projectiles into my body.
As I say I'm either the walking dead or a miracle.

 

[Apthorpe]

Studies show that as little as 25nmols / per litre of lead in your blood is a significant risk and factor for Leukaemia. 25 nmols is equivalent to about 10 micro grams of lead.

Given that we have about 5 litres of blood in the human body, that lead dissolves (albeit slowly) in stomach acid, you don't need to ingest very much lead over your lifetime to potentially have a major effect. IF YOU NEVER SH1T. If you consider a lead bullet is about 10grams (160 GRAINS) in weight and there is quite substantial splatter of lead - probably about 2 (30GRAINS) grams - across the carcass and into the meat (As opposed to the internal organs??) - how much lead is in those venison sausages made from bruised meat so that the game dealer / butcher can maximise yield on a carcass? (So this is a problem that could be entirely avoided by sausage makers not using sub-standard ingredients. Who actually uses the bruised meat for human consumption??)

And there are numerous scientific papers that show ingesting lead is harmful - but most are looking at immediate toxicity rather than long term effects.

I have put links elsewhere in this and other threads - go and read the evidence.

 

[Liveonce]

Have a read of Gamebore eco ammo and also Steel Shot Performance

I will freely admit that this season, given Covid, I haven't had a single day Pheasant shooting so have n't tried these yet at all. And the second article above, shows how you can make steel equivalent cartridge that gives same sorts energy per pellet and pellet density at normal shotgunning distances. The one downside is that you do have a tighter pattern so you need to be a little more accurate.

However the gamebore quad seal may not be without problems

Quad Seal

Instead of concentrating on the job in hand step-son while faffing around doing something seasonal no doubt has committed the cardinal sin of failing to get cartridges for a shoot. I am going to let him have my last slab - which leaves me with just under two boxes - of my Hull High Pheasant 7s - ...

forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk

 

[Heym SR20]

I have read these, and am familiar with similar data. Given that we're in approximate agreement on the data, the only issue is that these tables quote steel at slightly higher velocity than found in UK cartridges.
I'd still love to know where you're getting steel cartridges in 2 3/4 inch, size 3, 44grammes? And you're finding them OK to shoot?

I am using 3" Steel 36 gram's Gamebore or Solway Wildfowling loads out of my Franchi Affinity in No 4 shot size. These are higher velocity steel proof loads. I have found they kill ducks and geese very well - as in they hit the ground dead. I do however take slightly fewer shots than I used to as no longer take those high birds that used to tempt me but are probably out of range. But I now tend to come home after firing fewer shots with more birds in the bag. And I am shooting on the foreshore not over decoys or on a flight pond, so these are passing birds at a good range.

And re the lead adsorption - as was told to me by the lead scientist who is working on lead giving rise to leukaemia - lead is likely to be ingested as part of a protein and fat rich meal - ie venison or phaesant casserole. It is thus likely to be in the stomach exposed to stomach acids and enzymes for three or four hours. This will give time for a small amount of the lead to dissolved and can adsorbed in the gut along with other nutrients. Yes most of the lead pellet or lead fragments will go ping as they hit the porcelain, but some will remain in your body. Eat venison and phaesant regularly over a number of years and it all builds up. Once lead and other metals are in your body you cannot get rid of them - the only way is with chelating drugs.

And yes the problem can be avoided by good butchery and keeping to high standards. If I have a shot damaged shoulder, it goes in the bin - but would really question how much a shoulder would go in the bin in a commercial facility when margins are thin.

The work I am involved with is developing chelating drugs in combination with chemotherapies to treat leukaemia's, and so far across a statistically large enough sample of patients on palliative care the pre-clinical trials are showing very positive results.

 

[25 Sharps]

Research in Sweden showed that lead in its fast form was no threat to the environment. Lead in vegi's from lead shot or bullets? Really? That sounds like really clutching at straws. Lead free Lemmings all rushing to throw them selves over the cliff. Where did this self destructive tendency come from in UK hunters and shooters?

Throw themselves of a cliff, no, you are wrong.

Rushing to throw us all off a cliff more like!

 

[Apthorpe]

I am using 3" Steel 36 gram's Gamebore or Solway Wildfowling loads out of my Franchi Affinity in No 4 shot size. These are higher velocity steel proof loads. I have found they kill ducks and geese very well - as in they hit the ground dead. I do however take slightly fewer shots than I used to as no longer take those high birds that used to tempt me but are probably out of range. But I now tend to come home after firing fewer shots with more birds in the bag. And I am shooting on the foreshore not over decoys or on a flight pond, so these are passing birds at a good range.

And re the lead adsorption - as was told to me by the lead scientist who is working on lead giving rise to leukaemia - lead is likely to be ingested as part of a protein and fat rich meal - ie venison or phaesant casserole. It is thus likely to be in the stomach exposed to stomach acids and enzymes for three or four hours. This will give time for a small amount of the lead to dissolved and can adsorbed in the gut along with other nutrients. Yes most of the lead pellet or lead fragments will go ping as they hit the porcelain, but some will remain in your body. Eat venison and phaesant regularly over a number of years and it all builds up. Once lead and other metals are in your body you cannot get rid of them - the only way is with chelating drugs.

And yes the problem can be avoided by good butchery and keeping to high standards. If I have a shot damaged shoulder, it goes in the bin - but would really question how much a shoulder would go in the bin in a commercial facility when margins are thin.

The work I am involved with is developing chelating drugs in combination with chemotherapies to treat leukaemia's, and so far across a statistically large enough sample of patients on palliative care the pre-clinical trials are showing very positive results.

Thank you for the detailed reply. I fear I misunderstood you, I thought you'd been using steel in side by sides like an AYA.
I'm keen to avoid having to buy new game guns for no other reason than to appease a small bunch of weirdos claiming to be worried about a non-existent problem. There is at least a theoretical solution to the problem, whereby one throws away perfectly good English or Spanish guns in order to get one of only two models on the market of lower quality new guns which are inferior in every respect except being able to take suitable steel cartridges, and, in one case, costing an excessive amount of money.

 

[CarlW]

There is at least a theoretical solution to the problem, whereby one throws away perfectly good English or Spanish guns in order to get one of only two models on the market of lower quality new guns which are inferior in every respect except being able to take suitable steel cartridges, and, in one case, costing an excessive amount of money.

Sounds like a way forward.

BASC thanks you for your feedback and welcomes this solution. We look forward to being of further assistance in the future.

 

[LuckyEddie]

I’m lucky enough to get lead testing as part of my job involves refurbishing old metallic bridges that have lead paint on them.
So having grown up with lead pipes in my parents home and putting lead air rifle pellets in my mouth as a teenager, crimping lead weights whilst fishing for most of my younger years, picking brambles and cherries from the roadside throughout the 70s and 80s and using railway detonators when involved with setting up protection limits on the railway; I have one of the lowest lead blood counts the doc had seen.
It would be interesting to find out what the statistics indicate about the use of lead ammunition in meat destined for human consumption.
Should all those that shoot and eat their meat be tested, say every 3yrs or even every 5 yrs on license renewal, to establish any health issues?

 

[Heym SR20]

Thank you for the detailed reply. I fear I misunderstood you, I thought you'd been using steel in side by sides like an AYA.
I'm keen to avoid having to buy new game guns for no other reason than to appease a small bunch of weirdos claiming to be worried about a non-existent problem. There is at least a theoretical solution to the problem, whereby one throws away perfectly good English or Spanish guns in order to get one of only two models on the market of lower quality new guns which are inferior in every respect except being able to take suitable steel cartridges, and, in one case, costing an excessive amount of money.

I did have an AyA no3 magnum for a while and used 3” through that. Chokes had been opened up. It was a nice and good gun but it was too low in the comb fir me and I couldn’t hit a thing with it. The Franchi Affinity which I now have I don’t seem to be able to miss with!

I also have an AyA coral over and under and will try the new generation of eco cartridges next season. I expect my timing may need to be a little different, but that’s no different to changing brand of cartridge.

 

[Utectok]

But we aren't in Europe any more....will Brexit make a difference????

The uk government has signed up to the The European Chemicals Agency directive. So no being out of European Union makes no difference. That’s my understanding anyway.