Even id you are thinking of leaving this is worth a read
- Thread starter Heym SR20
- Start date
I find it curious that the 'IN' crowd think that we are somehow strong enough to take a lead position in the EU but too weak to stand alone
Either that is contradictory, or they think the EU is such a shower of ''SH one T'' that the UK (weak though they think we are) are strong enough to lead in the EU
For my part the ''culture'' of the EU (as opposed to the countries of Europe) is so diametrically at odds with the British culture that there is little, if any, common ground
Further
Can you imagine how Germany and France are going to view us once we have been seen to have surrendered
We will be an irrelevance; Parliament a ''rubber stamping house''; Labor and the Cons will never be forgiven by their traditional voters for selling us down the river
A green flag for German domination of an EUSSR
Either that is contradictory, or they think the EU is such a shower of ''SH one T'' that the UK (weak though they think we are) are strong enough to lead in the EU
For my part the ''culture'' of the EU (as opposed to the countries of Europe) is so diametrically at odds with the British culture that there is little, if any, common ground
Further
Can you imagine how Germany and France are going to view us once we have been seen to have surrendered
We will be an irrelevance; Parliament a ''rubber stamping house''; Labor and the Cons will never be forgiven by their traditional voters for selling us down the river
A green flag for German domination of an EUSSR
bewsher500
Well-Known Member
Taken from a recent online aricle
If you are undecided about which way to vote on the 23rd, I heard a couple of things at a seminar this morning which might be of interest...
Firstly, I haven't read much in the media debate about the mechanics of a UK exit. It's all a bit 'we have to leave to protect our borders'. Or 'we have to stay to protect the economy'. What I hadn't realised until this morning is that if we vote to leave, the mechanics of withdrawal are horrendously complicated (unsurprisingly).
The mechanism under which we'd exit (Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union) is 17 words long (one of the people who drafted it was on the panel of speakers and he admitted that the drafts-people never expected it to be invoked). Once we've sent our letter to Europe saying that we're off, we'd have two years to negotiate our withdrawal. The problem (apart from the fact that two years is no time at all to unravel our participation in Europe), is that Article 50 is only an exit agreement. It doesn't make any provision AT ALL about how we then negotiate our new relationship with Europe from the outside.
In fact, legally, Europe CANNOT negotiate a new relationship with us until we're a third country ie the two years have passed. So while we can have some informal, closed-door conversations during that two-year period, we can't begin to put anything formal in place until we're out on our own. When we've finally managed to negotiate our new deal with Europe after those 2 years, a lot of the terms of that deal will have to be ratified by all of the remaining 27 Member States. And experience tells us that ratification could take 7-8 years. So it struck me that we might be in a weird sort of limbo for a whole decade, which doesn't sound too good.
Secondly, if we do end up having to negotiate a new relationship with Europe from the outside, we will obviously be pushing for it to include all the things we want - access to the single market, free trade etc (all that 'good stuff'). But we're not going to get that for free. We'll have to make concessions. And the things which we're most likely to have to concede on are going to be the things which seem to be driving the Leave campaign (primarily, 'close the borders'). There's a strong chance we'll have to concede on free movement of people.
So we'd be in the same position we're in at the moment except that we'd be on the outside looking in, instead of having a seat at the table with the decision-makers.
I really hope we stay!
If you are undecided about which way to vote on the 23rd, I heard a couple of things at a seminar this morning which might be of interest...
Firstly, I haven't read much in the media debate about the mechanics of a UK exit. It's all a bit 'we have to leave to protect our borders'. Or 'we have to stay to protect the economy'. What I hadn't realised until this morning is that if we vote to leave, the mechanics of withdrawal are horrendously complicated (unsurprisingly).
The mechanism under which we'd exit (Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union) is 17 words long (one of the people who drafted it was on the panel of speakers and he admitted that the drafts-people never expected it to be invoked). Once we've sent our letter to Europe saying that we're off, we'd have two years to negotiate our withdrawal. The problem (apart from the fact that two years is no time at all to unravel our participation in Europe), is that Article 50 is only an exit agreement. It doesn't make any provision AT ALL about how we then negotiate our new relationship with Europe from the outside.
In fact, legally, Europe CANNOT negotiate a new relationship with us until we're a third country ie the two years have passed. So while we can have some informal, closed-door conversations during that two-year period, we can't begin to put anything formal in place until we're out on our own. When we've finally managed to negotiate our new deal with Europe after those 2 years, a lot of the terms of that deal will have to be ratified by all of the remaining 27 Member States. And experience tells us that ratification could take 7-8 years. So it struck me that we might be in a weird sort of limbo for a whole decade, which doesn't sound too good.
Secondly, if we do end up having to negotiate a new relationship with Europe from the outside, we will obviously be pushing for it to include all the things we want - access to the single market, free trade etc (all that 'good stuff'). But we're not going to get that for free. We'll have to make concessions. And the things which we're most likely to have to concede on are going to be the things which seem to be driving the Leave campaign (primarily, 'close the borders'). There's a strong chance we'll have to concede on free movement of people.
So we'd be in the same position we're in at the moment except that we'd be on the outside looking in, instead of having a seat at the table with the decision-makers.
I really hope we stay!
deeangeo
Well-Known Member
There always was going to be a two year exit strategy & the EU regs our politicians signed us up to were complicated as well as stringent.
We're still better off out and independent once more IMO. I still hope the vote result on 24th takes us OUT.
Harry Hirsch
Well-Known Member
The genie has been let out of the bottle with this referendum, chaos has already started, hatred, division and xenophobia (almost outright racism) is a result. One should perhaps be careful what one wishes for. Every single brexit vote is a vote for the ultra right wing of the Tory party. If brexit wins then I think it will be impossible to stop the Johnsons, Goves, Smiths, Farages etc. from taking over the Tories, and they have 4 years left to run. How many voters would have voted for this pack of .... in an election?
A ensuing breakup of the UK will possibly be hard to stop.
A buffoon of a PM called Johnson, a "British" (but soon perhaps only English) government who's only strategy is to blame immigration and the EU for everything that they themselves have caused, an idiot of a US president called Trump, a surge in right wing nationalism across large parts of the world and a Putin just waiting for his chance.
Against this, all that is wrong with the momentary status quo (and much is wrong) will seem like a childrens birthday party.
A ensuing breakup of the UK will possibly be hard to stop.
A buffoon of a PM called Johnson, a "British" (but soon perhaps only English) government who's only strategy is to blame immigration and the EU for everything that they themselves have caused, an idiot of a US president called Trump, a surge in right wing nationalism across large parts of the world and a Putin just waiting for his chance.
Against this, all that is wrong with the momentary status quo (and much is wrong) will seem like a childrens birthday party.
Of course one could just as accurately (and unverifiably) reverse your statement vis...
"I find it curious that the "OUT" crowd think that we are somehow strong enough to stand alone but too weak to take a lead position in the EU"
However, I for one do not see it in those terms at all.
With Britain as a major contributor to the "culture" of the EU I also cannot see the diametrically opposed aspects you speak of. We have far more in common with other Western European Democratic Industrial Nations culturally than any body else.
Further
My own view is based not on the negative or selfish aspects of finance and loss of sovereignty but on the positive ones of cooperation with our neighbours. What is best for both ourselves and the other EU members. What is good for all of us as Europeans, not just the UK.
With our traditional allies urging us to stay in, one could project the opposite wish onto those with whom we do not share interests.
In whose interests do you suppose a weakened EU is?..Certainly not Britain's.
Alan
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I feel the EU is a corrupt, complacent, mismanaged, bloated institution which is going to hell on a road paved with good intentions. The EEC is a great idea and if it hadn't been hijacked by federalists who are hell bent on building their personal great European state then I would still be all for it.
I feel the only way the EU will pay attention to the people is for the people to say "Enough!" This is why I will be voting Out on Thursday. I think an Out vote will cause all of the European political "elite" to reevaluate themselves.
As for all our septic friend like Obama who are telling us independence is dangerous should perhaps reexamine their own history for comparisons.
Rant over.
I feel the only way the EU will pay attention to the people is for the people to say "Enough!" This is why I will be voting Out on Thursday. I think an Out vote will cause all of the European political "elite" to reevaluate themselves.
As for all our septic friend like Obama who are telling us independence is dangerous should perhaps reexamine their own history for comparisons.
Rant over.
deeangeo
Well-Known Member
Not necessarily BJ for PM, Theresa May is notable for her background non vocal position through this campaigning period..... I'd say she has her sights set on the leadership asap!
Besides, given the funding I have a bet with very big odds that BJ would run for President of USA
Whatever way it cuts, Osbourne has definitely blown any chance he thought he had of becoming the next Tory leader.
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Harry Hirsch
Well-Known Member
Not sure is this stupid reply is aimed at me just because I have Germany and Kent in my location ?? If it isn't aimed at me then disregard my following reply.
I am neither Angela Merkel nor am I German. For your f........ information I am Welsh and British. I own a farm in Kent where we have sheep and pigs and in the adjoining woodland we stalk deer. I spend some time of the year in Germany where I also hunt.
Just what are you trying to say with this reply, which I assume is your crippled attempt at humour?
All I have put in my post is my view on what I consider to be a very serious threat for the future of the UK.
If all you can come up with is a personal attack then you have not got much to say perhaps.
I agree. I am one who would probably prefer that situation to a repeat of the right wing European axis of the 1930s and 40s
It could be argued that there is safety in numbers...the more "un-elected lizards" that have to be bribed, the less likely that the multinational banks or businesses would get their way.
I can think of a few things where the EU has resisted pressure from multinationals that our government was happy to accept for whatever reason. Protecting the German beer purity laws or the rather more circumspect approach to Monsanto's GM systems than our government takes for example.
But the corruption is not just with the EU. The Whitehall corruption involving "revolving doors" is so well known that it was referenced in mainstream Saturday night comedy TV shows...not just Private Eye and the Guardian. The EU ban on neonicotinoids, when it was shown that they were having a disastrous effect on the bee population, was partially overturned when Bayer and Syngenta were allowed to influence the decision against the advice of our own Expert Committee on Pesticides. With DEFRA demanding that information suppressed until the legislation was passed for fear of people lobbying against the interests of the Chemical giants.
With "cash for questions" "MPs expenses" and the various stings showing the willingness to influence policy for cash by even our senior politicians, I have no reason to believe that we will be in a corruption free Utopia if we leave the EU.
I am not saying that two lots of corruption is to be preferred, but the idea that somehow we would be rid of it if we left the EU does not hold water.
Lost me... though it sounds humorous.
Alan
Vipa
Well-Known Member
"within a generation the UK will have a bigger population and bigger economy than Germany"
But we will still have the same landmass! When will people realise...
We are a small island, we have limited land and resources and all ready have a population stretching the limits, we are one of the the most densely populated country in the world and unless we want to start eating into our farming capability which would be suicidal, we really do have to put the brakes on... Fast! The British Isles just can't sustain a population the size that it will be without the quality of life and health for all but the wealthy suffering monumentally!
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Did you read the article? I though the point being made regarding the bigger population was to do with the balance of political power within the EU rather than overcrowding our resources.
"...Germany had a plan. It unfolded in three astounding manoeuvres: 1) the reunited Germany to have the biggest population in Europe; 2) EU voting to be changed (as it was at the Treaty of Nice) to reflect population weight; and 3) the voting threshold to pass EU law was to be reduced (as it was at the Treaty of Lisbon)...."
Alan
Vipa
Well-Known Member
Yes Alan, I did read the article... it is irrelevant what its meaning was, I was not passing comment on it's meaning, just picking up on the point made and the fact still remains that our tiny little bit of rock simply cannot accommodate manymore people without something giving!
Like others on here I am English/British (back to late 1600's). Ever since boats were invented people have found Britain a delightful place to settle but we now have far too many people.
Vote remain if you like but to use dialect "I ae avin it, we'm votin aaght" (sorry Rod P). My old man a "Flighty Engineer in Lancasters" will now be called Rolin Albert as he will have turned in his grave a thousand times over us being in bed with Germany,he was glad to punish them for their transgressions,and making us go to war twice in twenty odd years.
Like others I have done my bit and I didn't do it for Europe,it was for good old GB, last rant we'm all out.
Vote remain if you like but to use dialect "I ae avin it, we'm votin aaght" (sorry Rod P). My old man a "Flighty Engineer in Lancasters" will now be called Rolin Albert as he will have turned in his grave a thousand times over us being in bed with Germany,he was glad to punish them for their transgressions,and making us go to war twice in twenty odd years.
Like others I have done my bit and I didn't do it for Europe,it was for good old GB, last rant we'm all out.
And here you have inadvertently stepped on the root cause of any integration problems with europe, and probably why they dislike us and accuse us of trouble making. You see, there are no "other" europeans, only europeans and us. The government can sign us up to whatever they wish, but for a vast majority of folk we'll never be europeans. They can write "european" as many times as they like by our name, they can refer to us as "europeans" as often as they wish, we just ignore it and carry on as British subjects (or even Welsh, English, Scottish etc)
At work we still use ft and inches, the majority of drawings (sketches?) we get are in ft and inches (even from councils etc). Two blokes in their early thirties and they use ft and inches, they've completely forgotten the decimal rubbish they were taught and if we do get the occasional dimensions in metric they convert back to imperial.
I, and a lot of others, shall never be european. Europe could sink beneath the waves for all we care, we never think about it, we never include it by name (always Spain, France, germany etc). So, in or out, we will always be British and the eu know this, and it annoys them. This is working class thinking, and there's an awful lot of working class in this country.
The government is european but it's subjects are still British ............ and there's nothing they or the eu can do about it
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Sako75Hunter
Well-Known Member
I entered 'Schmidt and Bender' into the SD search bar, and this thread was among those that came up! (I think someone mentioned S&B earlier in the thread as an example of a foreign firm.)
As an outsider (Irish) looking in, it's interesting to read the actual thoughts of some of those who'll be voting one way or the other. Most people here in the Republic are hoping the UK will stay in Europe, largely for economic reasons (the UK is our main trading partner), but others are saying Ireland would benefit from a Brexit as the sole remaining English-speaking country in the EU, with Dublin perhaps taking some of the business currently going to the City of London. Personally I hope the UK stays in the EU. Time will tell!
As an outsider (Irish) looking in, it's interesting to read the actual thoughts of some of those who'll be voting one way or the other. Most people here in the Republic are hoping the UK will stay in Europe, largely for economic reasons (the UK is our main trading partner), but others are saying Ireland would benefit from a Brexit as the sole remaining English-speaking country in the EU, with Dublin perhaps taking some of the business currently going to the City of London. Personally I hope the UK stays in the EU. Time will tell!
ChesterP
Well-Known Member
Read it and thought "a load of old claptrap" which singularly fails to address the true meaning of sovereignty and the wish for proper democracy which the EU doesn't allow. It also plays the stereotyping game and is no different from most of the nonsense that the "Remain" camp keep churning out ad infinitum.
How about the fact the laws, about 60% which we abide by, emanate from the EU but NOT from the EU parliament where MEPs only have the right to vote on what comes from the European Commission. It is the latter who make the decisions and even if a majority of member state MEPs vote "No!", the EC can choose to pass the motion into law anyway. Democracy at work? I don't think so. Then there's the protectionism of industries such as the Swedish Steel plants which have won concessions for contracts originally destined for the Welsh Steel industry and the contracts were awarded to them to save their industry at the expense of what was left of British Steel. The list of examples is immense if one starts at say a decade ago, and only serves to highlight the systematic asset stripping of the UK, which continues to pour more into the EU than it gets back. Then there's the open borders issue and free movement of people with reputedly 1 million Turks waiting in the wings after they're admitted (they will be admitted despite the denials as the USA wants to maintain their missile bases there and the EU wants expansionism to counter the growing Russian threat, caused ironically in part by the aggression of the EU expansion policy). Add to that the repeated fudging of the economic entry criteria setting in place a disparate and unbalanced labour market, welfare states and massive discrepancy in contribution and we have the richer states being stripped to shore up the poorer EU nations let in knowingly without the economic clout to perform in balance, generating unfair debts on them which Germany rules with an iron fist.
These are all the reasons we want our country back, not some half witted stereotyping of Brexiters as some sort of little Englanders from the last century. It is nothing more than an insult to intelligence to read such cobblers.
How about the fact the laws, about 60% which we abide by, emanate from the EU but NOT from the EU parliament where MEPs only have the right to vote on what comes from the European Commission. It is the latter who make the decisions and even if a majority of member state MEPs vote "No!", the EC can choose to pass the motion into law anyway. Democracy at work? I don't think so. Then there's the protectionism of industries such as the Swedish Steel plants which have won concessions for contracts originally destined for the Welsh Steel industry and the contracts were awarded to them to save their industry at the expense of what was left of British Steel. The list of examples is immense if one starts at say a decade ago, and only serves to highlight the systematic asset stripping of the UK, which continues to pour more into the EU than it gets back. Then there's the open borders issue and free movement of people with reputedly 1 million Turks waiting in the wings after they're admitted (they will be admitted despite the denials as the USA wants to maintain their missile bases there and the EU wants expansionism to counter the growing Russian threat, caused ironically in part by the aggression of the EU expansion policy). Add to that the repeated fudging of the economic entry criteria setting in place a disparate and unbalanced labour market, welfare states and massive discrepancy in contribution and we have the richer states being stripped to shore up the poorer EU nations let in knowingly without the economic clout to perform in balance, generating unfair debts on them which Germany rules with an iron fist.
These are all the reasons we want our country back, not some half witted stereotyping of Brexiters as some sort of little Englanders from the last century. It is nothing more than an insult to intelligence to read such cobblers.
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