FAC grant (Scotland) issues

[Subsistence]

Thanks for all the advice chaps.

Feeling a little more confident about getting a good outcome. BASC are currently looking into what the best course of action would be.

 

[doric_prince]

I was granted my FAC on receipt of a few booked stalks I had done over previous few years, plus a weeks stalking I had coming up. I’ve had 2 renewals since and never a permission on any land for deer. This has never been a problem for me. All police Scotland, East Lothian and latterly borders regions. ( I already held a sgc for some time though). It will be the miss understanding / interpretation of one feo you have the misfortune to be dealing with, push back using basc- you appear to meet the criteria for a grant.

 

[Rake Aboot]

I’m sure plenty will disagree with me but I can actually see where the Police are coming from.

They are asking if you really have ‘good reason’ to obtain a firearm just now or whether you just want one as you’re getting into stalking and it’s all part of the stuff you think you ‘need’ at this stage.

If the estate rifle clause is in place and sufficient and you don’t have ground but have some future stalks booked (which can also be cancelled) it’s a tough one to argue against.

I get that it can feel like chicken and egg however I’m pretty sure the FLO’s have to deal with several renewals every month from people who have been granted FAC under similar circumstances who didn’t really need a FAC and have purchased one box of ammunition which is still half full after 5 years as they’ve done three paid stalks (if that) and are often the same people moaning how expensive it is to do paid stalks and/or how expensive syndicates are etc but have a nice shiny £3k rifle and optics package in the cabinet.

Yes , I disagree with you.

Owning a gun is normal and should be fully normalised.
The public need to accept that owning guns is normal , as do the police.

Legal gun ownership is not in any way a problem in this country and should be actively encouraged.

 

[HonestJohn]

Yes , I disagree with you.

Owning a gun is normal and should be fully normalised.
The public need to accept that owning guns is normal , as do the police.

Legal gun ownership is not in any way a problem in this country and should be actively encouraged.

Well said that

 

[co’den]

I got my first grant last year. It may well have been the same FEO as there was only one in Scotland at the time.
I was (am still) a member of a couple of clubs and also had a mentor, booked DSC1 and an open stalking invite in place. The good reason for target shooting was acceptable but the open invite wasn’t deemed sufficient good reason for a deer/aolq condition.
I was allowed some time to submit a land permission and, once that was in place, I got my grant no fuss.

If you can’t get a permission then maybe apply for target only initially and apply for a variation on the conditions once you have more stalks booked / completed. Obviously you’ll need to use an estate rifle until you can get that variation.

 

[Blaser243]

n/a

 

[Mick9abf]

Yes , I disagree with you.

Owning a gun is normal and should be fully normalised.
The public need to accept that owning guns is normal , as do the police.

Legal gun ownership is not in any way a problem in this country and should be actively encouraged.

At no point did I say it isn’t normal and should be encouraged, it’s fair to say that outside of my work most of my friends and acquaintances shoot, stalk or are employed in one way or another with rural industry so I consider it ‘normal’ to own firearms as in I don’t even think about it.

What I highlighted is an applicant ‘providing good reason’ and sadly without ground I do see where the Police are coming from and you could debate it all night however to clear it up really it’s up to the HO to either clarify the wording of their guidelines so there is no dubiety or remove bits as often there’s wording like ‘may’ or ‘if the applicant provides XY or Z’, this would give the FLD no room to make one rule for one and one for another.

 

[Stephenbuck2489]

On a note of Scotland police being awkward.
After approaching a farmer i do some work for looking for "permission " his reply was he couldnt sign, due to how difficult his OWN renewal on his OWN land was because he had granted permission to someone else to manage deer.
i think he got it.. but he said it was very difficult and ALLOT of questions.

 

[Bo Diddley]

On a note of Scotland police being awkward.
After approaching a farmer i do some work for looking for "permission " his reply was he couldnt sign, due to how difficult his OWN renewal on his OWN land was because he had granted permission to someone else to manage deer.
i think he got it.. but he said it was very difficult and ALLOT of questions.

You couldn't make it up really

 

[VSS]

On a note of Scotland police being awkward.
After approaching a farmer i do some work for looking for "permission " his reply was he couldnt sign, due to how difficult his OWN renewal on his OWN land was because he had granted permission to someone else to manage deer.
i think he got it.. but he said it was very difficult and ALLOT of questions.

I think perhaps he just didn't want to give you permission to shoot on his land.

 

[Stephenbuck2489]

I think perhaps he just didn't want to give you permission to shoot on his land.

if i didnt get on with him or know him very well id perhaps agree.
but in this instance id definitely say not the case i know the family on a personal and professional manner hes said i can have all the bird shooting i want there. but just cant sign a FAC permission due to there being someone with permission on his ground already.

 

[Utectok]

You’ve hit a problem I hit a number of years ago. No place to shoot and can’t get a place to shoot till I have a FAC. I ended up getting a friend to say I could shoot on his land although I didn’t actually ever shoot on it if you get my drift. It’s a slightly crazy situation getting started. That said you should theoretically be ok with paid stalks booked but they may have found something else that bothered them and just trying to look for an out?

 

[Rake Aboot]

At no point did I say it isn’t normal and should be encouraged, it’s fair to say that outside of my work most of my friends and acquaintances shoot, stalk or are employed in one way or another with rural industry so I consider it ‘normal’ to own firearms as in I don’t even think about it.

What I highlighted is an applicant ‘providing good reason’ and sadly without ground I do see where the Police are coming from and you could debate it all night however to clear it up really it’s up to the HO to either clarify the wording of their guidelines so there is no dubiety or remove bits as often there’s wording like ‘may’ or ‘if the applicant provides XY or Z’, this would give the FLD no room to make one rule for one and one for another.

I agree, but you did state you saw the police point of view and invited people to disagree with you. I did.

 

[Subsistence]

Slight update (of sorts)

Basc scotland tell me its possible to get an FAC approved for paid stalks, however they are more reluctant to do this than in other parts of the UK, this may be the case but as others have posted there experiences it seems a bit hit and miss on who you get. Anyway the point is a bit moot now as I am finalising a syndicate place.

My FEO who up untill the visit, generally replied very promptly (Same day) seems to stop responding to email and phone calls. I had asked her to put in writing why they suggested I withdraw my application in its current form, And also to tell me who the person was that accompanied her but did not introduce himself.

At someone else's advice I contacted the licencing team instead of the FEO regarding my application, however they said they didn't know the ins and outs of my application, and that they would get my FEO to call me back as she was definitely working that day. That was on Monday and yet again she did not call me on Monday or Tuesday.

This morning I got this email from her -

Good Morning James



I can confirm that I have received communication from Firearms Licensing regarding the information provided. Please be aware that I had days off and I have a number of enquiries ongoing at the same time. I am not able to immediately return calls as I am out of the office a lot. I do not have an allocated contact number to make calls when I’m mobile.



Can you confirm where you intend to keep any deer that you shoot if your planning to be able to live off what is shot on the land.



I will allocate time to complete your enquiry within the timescales that I’m given, and I will return your call when possible.



Thank you



Sharon



PC Sharon Hepburn

Firearms Enquiry Officer



What in the world is that middle paragraph, I have a large larder fridge, and also a chest freezer that is my game freezer. Anybody else had to answer these bizarre questions? Surly that's just my buisness and nothing to do with Firearms licencing.

Subsistence

 

[VSS]

Can you confirm where you intend to keep any deer that you shoot if your planning to be able to live off what is shot on the land.

This is absolutely 100% none of their business, it's got nothing to do with whether or not you should be granted a FAC, and the FEO has no right to be asking about it as part of her assessment of your suitability.

 

[slider]

It is a slightly off the wall question but is likely a roundabout way of confirming you intend to live of the deer you shoot and your not just saying that to enhance your application

 

[Subsistence]

This is absolutely 100% none of their business, it's got nothing to do with whether or not you should be granted a FAC, and they have no right asking about it.

That's what I thought,

Seems like for some unknown reason they just want to make things as difficult as possible for me

 

[VSS]

It is a slightly off the wall question but is likely a roundabout way of confirming you intend to live of the deer you shoot and your not just saying that to enhance your application

In which case, I suppose it's the sort of thing that might crop up in polite conversation during the interview, just to see if your stated "good reason" stands up to scrutiny.

 

[Subsistence]

They also both walked past my chest freezer when entering my property, no questions about it at the home visit, they were to busy telling me all the reasons they would take my firarms off me.
Something that they talked about on several occasions, but somehow never managed to ask the question of why I thought I had good reason to own a firarm for doing paid stalks. .

Then at the end he (Mr unidentified) had the audacity to tell me how much he thought a rifle would cost insinuating that he thought I could not afford to buy and maintain my own equipment. Again, my money and what I do with it is nothing to do with them. They are just there to assess my suitability.

The whole prosses is beginning to leave a bit of a sour taste, there seems to be a lot of negative bias towards me for some unknown reason, despite my evidence of lifestyle choices, commitment to stalking, several years of experience with differnt firarms from air rifles to CF and the humane taking of live game.

I understand they need to do there due diligence, bit this seems excessively overboard in my case.

 

[andyk]

Personally, I’d answer the question without agreeing it’s a necessity.

As others have said, this may be a way of her approving your application on the basis of ‘new information’ and not having to acknowledge the prior decision was wrong.

As to BASC, that’s a bit concerning if they’re willing to accept Police Scotland taking that view. So far, case law is clear that good reason is not need. If Police Scotland are now saying paid stalks (with adequate evidence) aren’t good reason, that’s starting to look an awful lot like equating good reason to need.

@Conor O'Gorman