Norfolk Horn
Well-Known Member
Now if you don't stop I will have no alternative but to report this as its all turning rather nasty now.Don't forget the webs between them.
Fenlander dogs
- Thread starter Xone262
- Start date
Firstly a good dog is a good dog , dispite or because of its breeding . That said there is no way to know which ways the genetics fall. The litter itself could be spit into types.
I suspect cross breed discounts on insurance are done not because of hybryd vigour but instead because mongrel owners are less gullible about buying insurance?
If you took a flatcoat and a lab cross it wouldn't be healthier than a straight lab and likely wouldn't be any better in the field than a well bred lab as flatcoats have all but gone from the field now because of the Labrador breeds absolute dominance in retrieving as a breed
On the other hand if you put a greyhound to a border collie you could get the greyhound brains and the Collies pace but chances are although the litter would be mixed its a fair bet they would make more height than the collie and somewhat faster . All a matter of degree and chance though
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
While a good dog is a good dog, the whole point of establishing a breed/type is to tip the odds when you pick a pup.
To do that you need to define and fix what you want from your new bloodline and be absolutely ruthless culling and discarding the poor workers as well as the dogs that donât conform to your preferred body and coat type.
If youâre not going to do that youâre going to end up with a kennel full of nondescript mongrels with widely varying working abilities and appearance. You wont have a âtypeâ.
The late John Nash is credited with â bringing backâ the red and white Irish setter, he was also a very successful field trial competitor with springer spaniels. He routinely put down dogs that failed to meet his standards, over the years that amounted to a lot of dogs. If he hadnât, he wouldnât have succeeded.
If you want to buy a cross bred dog, thatâs your choice but do it in the knowledge that yourâe taking a massive punt on the result in terms of both appearance and ability, and that if your dog does prove to be an absolute paragon of looks or ability you canât compete with it in field trials or shows.
It also wonât breed true for type or ability and a lot of owners of pedigree dogs arenât too keen to have a mongrel cover their bitch, so when its gone its gone.
A pedigree dog wonât give you a guarantee, but it does tip the odds a bit more in your favour.
To do that you need to define and fix what you want from your new bloodline and be absolutely ruthless culling and discarding the poor workers as well as the dogs that donât conform to your preferred body and coat type.
If youâre not going to do that youâre going to end up with a kennel full of nondescript mongrels with widely varying working abilities and appearance. You wont have a âtypeâ.
The late John Nash is credited with â bringing backâ the red and white Irish setter, he was also a very successful field trial competitor with springer spaniels. He routinely put down dogs that failed to meet his standards, over the years that amounted to a lot of dogs. If he hadnât, he wouldnât have succeeded.
If you want to buy a cross bred dog, thatâs your choice but do it in the knowledge that yourâe taking a massive punt on the result in terms of both appearance and ability, and that if your dog does prove to be an absolute paragon of looks or ability you canât compete with it in field trials or shows.
It also wonât breed true for type or ability and a lot of owners of pedigree dogs arenât too keen to have a mongrel cover their bitch, so when its gone its gone.
A pedigree dog wonât give you a guarantee, but it does tip the odds a bit more in your favour.
Well known breed over here is a Norfolk Suener. Suener sheet in the house than outside.Don't forget the webs between them.
Lloyd90
Well-Known Member
A bloke whoâs taken show bred Springers and bred them to a number of different breeds ⊠claiming they are âold typeâ (old type show dogs) and superior workers to current breeds that are bred from worker to worker for generations.
Then claimed they are a breed and âTrademarkedâ them (if thatâs even possible)âŠ
The old saying is certainly true ⊠a fool and his money âŠ
Then claimed they are a breed and âTrademarkedâ them (if thatâs even possible)âŠ
The old saying is certainly true ⊠a fool and his money âŠ
Itâs called âclever marketingâ
Thatâs how you can charge more for your product and make more profit from your business.
Dogs are the number one fashion accessory.
Lloyd90
Well-Known Member
Iâve seen similar claimed with other âold typeâ springer lines ⊠but at least they werenât bred from show stock.
When you see them in the flesh or the owner posts up of them working I have to say they donât seem to ever live up to the hype âŠ
All marketing as you say
It's hard to say some years ago I knew a guy that bought a ESS pup when it got to ,8 months old he realised there was something wrong and went back to the breeder who admitted he also had a GSP who must have some how got to the spaniel bitch he give him his money back but would not take the pup back well he trialed spaniels so it was of no use to him.
Pup was to be put down if he could not find a home for it, I said I would give it a chance his loss was my gain turned to be a fantastic all round dog.
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
I've absolutely no doubt about the above BT,.
And atleast at 8 months u will begin to see the true tempernment and workability of the dog
But would u ever choose to conciously mate 2 together expecting to make a wonder breed?
I've heard of a couple of accidental litters too, alhou i've never knew anyone to take 1, was offered 1 years ao for not a lot of cash but didnae think would be a good idea, most likely a lot of work for a dog that % of failure would be quite high
In the past and even in more recent times likes of keepers or lurcher/terrier men would be quite ruthless with dogs not up to the grade and they tended to have a good idea of wot the 'grade' actually was and tended to have an eye for the strengths and weaknesses of their own dog as well as potential sires/dams.
So ur breeding a sire with strong points to compensate for the bitches weak points and vice versa for sire, but u could still end up with a pup that ends up with the weak points of both ( and more so with X breeds as u don't know how dominant/reccessice traits will play out), thats where in the past they would be PTS, after a few gens like that u will start to get more of a 'type' and when ur picking pups they should be far more similar across the litter
No reason why someone shouldn't try to create a new breed from a mix of genetics. It's how all our current breeds were developed in the first place. But it takes a long time to stabilise a breed so it'll breed true to type, and most fail. Just occasionally a new breed makes good, but it's usually the result of a lifetime's work, and some harsh culling along the way. Think of the Plummer terrier.
The chap with the Fenlanders is nowhere near it yet, but that's not to say that what he's selling won't be any good. They ought to work well enough, but at this stage they're not a breed by any stretch of the imagination, or even a consistent type.
The chap with the Fenlanders is nowhere near it yet, but that's not to say that what he's selling won't be any good. They ought to work well enough, but at this stage they're not a breed by any stretch of the imagination, or even a consistent type.
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countrryboy
Well-Known Member
I agree with the above.
But surely there must come a stage when there already is a suitable breed for most niche's?
There is a wide selection of hpr breeds already, cant see how adding a springer blood is helping. There already is slower less rangey breeds if that is the aim
Hell even the variation in different hpr or ESS lines can make a big difference from 1 dog to an other either 1 line very fast and driven ( most likely FT) to more a working plodding line.
Its all very well reinventing the wheel if there is a genuine need, but nowadays it just seems to be done for ego/money/looks or just to be different.
Dunno if just a gundog thing that new owners are always trying to fit a square peg into a round hole
Do u get farming/shepherding sites where folk are always asking about random rare breeds instead of ur trusty collie? Or trying to X random dogs to improve collies
Generally the older generations/victorians had a pretty good idea wot they were doing, a far better idea than most do nowadays as most of the working breeds havent changed an awful lot since, which is true for farm livestock too, and often most of the recent 'improvements' are not really
Dan Newcombe
Well-Known Member
Thereâs a bit different to a working gundog, and a dog that goes on shoot days!
Modern day Spaniels ( Cockers and Springers) have changed so much away from type from say 40 years ago. Then Springers seemed to be more box like, now they look like hairy whippets .Working Cockers if you wanted one forty years ago you went to Wales or Scotland for a working dog.Today they really have a look of frail maybe timid pet.( timid means not hardy) Time moves on my opinion now is a good cross breed I've a Springer and a Sprocker. The Sprocker looks a more workman like Spaniel type for everyday working. As an aside I'm a Spaniel man whatever they look like.
jimmy milnes
Well-Known Member
It would be very much open to debate if DB Plummer actually completed the creation of the Plummer terrier within his own lifetime. Almost 20 years after his death there are many who believe that, in its current state, it needs additional outcrossing. Plummer did not have it registered and as such, you could say that the gene pool is still open.
Jon P
Well-Known Member
Out of curiosity what did you dislike about them? I know that some had issues with cleft palettes- i had never owned a plumber type, used to keep Jacks for the rock holes and a few patterdales as back up.
jimmy milnes
Well-Known Member
The ones I saw had the working ability of a hamster.
I know I shouldn't really speak ill of the dead an all that, however, I do think there was more than a little poetic license used in both his books and his dogs.
Jimmy.
Where I live in North Wales back in the very early 80s I'd never seen a Plummer terrier, and the local terrier guys that had seen them work had nothing but bad to say about them. They called them ratting dogs. As has been discussed earlier, we had a selection of extremely good terriers available, Borders, Fells, cross bred and Russells, why would you want to reinvent the wheel. I'd also agree with the comment that Mr Plummer was more about self promotion in order to sell his books.
8x57
Distinguished Member
Jimmy was he actually as eccentric as some say?
I only ask because I once worked with a couple of guys who knew him when he worked in a local college. They both described his as being as mad as a box of frogs and having some quite strange views.
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