Fenlander dogs

[Dunwaters]

It looks like he’s busy inventing the GLP





or the Munsterlander.




Maybe someone should tell him it’s already been done?

 

[Dunwaters]

up

Nothing against Labs, I have two, but not much good when you need a pointer, although the Americans have what they call pointing labs.not sure what has gone in to their make-up..
Our clients will only hunt with pointing dogs pointers and setters in the main these clients won't shoot birds if they have not been pointed by the dogs they work in teams of two men and a brace of dogs the trouble with this the English pointer is good at what he does but is a poor retriever as a rule, English Setters will retrieve but in many cases they are hard mouthed let's just say retrieving is not their strong point
I have worked mainly GSPs with one GSP ×GWP which was a superb dog..
Many but not all of the German pointers have a problem with hard mouth I had one GSP who had a a problemwith her mouth though it could not be described as hard mouth while she was great at picking Woodcock she could never find Snipe she could find and point them ok but once flushed and shot she could not find them , that was until I discovered she was just hoovering them up in full stride and swallowing them whole

Know a few keepers with Pennine pointers and I'm tempted, the idea of the combination of a pointing dog with the soft mouth of a Lab is appealing
Though of course I may end up with a fast free ranging crocodile

Your comments are spot on, if you want a setter/pointer that retrieves go to Scandinavia, they have some top class dogs.
In HPR’s I’ve not owned one until recently that was reliably soft mouthed.
A few were furry crocodiles and crushed everything, most of them were selective and confined themselves to giving lively pheasants a wee squeeze .

 

[Bowland blades]

Obviously they aren't a breed and hardly the very beginnings of one with only first and second crosses so it seems rather pretentious to give them the name 'Fenlander' although the term 'Pennine Pointer' appears to have been accepted. As a purpose-bred cross-bred there is no reason why they shouldn't be handy, no different to the way lurchers have been bred for years.

If the two breeds are compatible on a first cross ( which ever way it works out ) What i mean is say
A border collie with a greyhound brain is as likely as as the other way around . That's not total disaster but its not what the breeder would have wanted / desired for the job at hand - But there are way worse crosses
Now If we mated a Lab with a Chesapeake as a gun dog , Whatever you got its would work fine ( not a lurcher though ) It could still have a high performance as a Duck or Game Retriever . I know i have slipped away talking gundogs but its just to make the point - Many generations to get breeding true to type. Are all the puppy owners going to keep those pups all of the dogs lives?
Bedlington x Whippet would be similar to the Chez x lab , you cannot really end up with a useless dog for purpose

 

[Xone262]

Mine is turning out to be a cracking working dog so far. Agree not really a breed as you couldn’t replicate him, but so far in early days he is pretty steady, sits at the bottom of a high seat well, has blood tracked and found shot deer well. He’s a big boy and only 18months old so a long way to go. I’ve noticed training takes much longer than say a springer, but I think patience will pay off and I think when I introduce more bird work he will not be perfect but a good multipurpose all round worker. Pheasant flushes are good so far…The only thing I’m not really seeing yet is indication and pointing on a stalk. Strange considering the EP, Griffon cross. Maybe that will come with time, but maybe he won’t as he seems to like having head to ground more sniffing and hunting at ground level. Can’t expect to have it all though!

 

[SikaSeeker]

I thought it generally takes about 8 gens to get the breed/line breeding true.
In russia they done a study and were breeding domesticated foxes after 8 gens, sure it was something similar for the Korthrans Griffon too

But for that to happen u have to start out with a very clear plan of wot ur looking for, and back in the old days anything not meeting the standard would go for a swimming lesson inside a sack with a brick for company, (wrong colour, poor temperment, too small/large, poor scenting etc = swimming lessons.
As kieth said very few have the size of kennels to do it nowadays or the will to sterilise or PTS any animal not up to standard.

Just look at his photo 2 out of the 4 look similar other 2 completley different looking 1 just looks like a springer.

To be honest i can't even see the logic of crossing the 2 breeds, ( i get the idea with lab/ess or lab/gwp, generally to make the lab hunt a bit harder and calm the harder hunting breed down a bit) but a springer to a pointer ur only going to end up with a dog that ranges too far to shoot over and to near to be a true HPR, if ur dog even holds a point, most likely just going to be a fast healthy fairly wild dog

If u want a slower shorter ranging pointer there already is breeds like the brittany spaniel or spinone or bracco

First crossing doesn’t work like that. You think by crossing two different breeds, you’ll get the traits of both, a lot of the time you don’t. For example, cross a grey hound with a pit bull. You’re thinking it’s going to make an excellent foxing lurcher, the tenacity of the pit and the speed of the grey. In fact you might get a bull type lurcher but only has speed from the grey and no tenacity from the pit bull.
I owed a GWP x ESS, she was fantastic, bring her stalking, rough shooting and beating on pheasants or grouse. By putting two breeds together, doesn’t mean you get the main traits from either side.

 

[Fenmaned]

I am from Norfolk UK, I do a lot of rough shooting and beating locally. Usually I use a shot gun mainly but stalk(if you can call it stalking) rabbits and the such with the air rifle. I noticed this thread whilst researching the Fenlander when it came up next to it.

I am the breeder of the Fenlander, the one that someone early in this thread said 'Wouldn't touch with a barge pole!' and many others have laughed at and ridiculed. I am astounded that people who have not met me or my dogs, read my website fully or viewed the many Youtube videos hunting wild Fen pheasant or working them have the right to write such defamatory statements, which have damaged my business. They are not particularly bred for stalking but individuals in each litter would excel at it, like in most HPR Litters. This is over 20 years of careful breeding to get to a sturdy, larger than English springer size, bobtailed(Brittany) and wirecoated(Korthols) HPR, that will quarter out front and respond like a springer, to work my style of hunting.... working ability first. Several other gun dog breeds and working lines have been explored and taken out of the gene pool, at some cost and time. The larger proportion of pups go as pets as the majority of gundogs generally do. I have many people coming back for second, third and even a fourth. I trade marked the Fenlander to protect the name from the same fate as the labradoodle's original breeder had with the openly abused, indiscriminate designer breeding craze. I wish to assure any of those considering a Fenlander for working disciplines or family life, there is one to fit most.

 

[Fenmaned]

Mine is turning out to be a cracking working dog so far. Agree not really a breed as you couldn’t replicate him, but so far in early days he is pretty steady, sits at the bottom of a high seat well, has blood tracked and found shot deer well. He’s a big boy and only 18months old so a long way to go. I’ve noticed training takes much longer than say a springer, but I think patience will pay off and I think when I introduce more bird work he will not be perfect but a good multipurpose all round worker. Pheasant flushes are good so far…The only thing I’m not really seeing yet is indication and pointing on a stalk. Strange considering the EP, Griffon cross. Maybe that will come with time, but maybe he won’t as he seems to like having head to ground more sniffing and hunting at ground level. Can’t expect to have it all though!

I take it your boy is a Fenlander. The original Korthols/Gwp I used was a late pointer, had to rein him in a lot, then took him beating a few times doing a lot of heel work in the beating line, that got him more focused and he started to indicate and point. Some of them mature late mentally, so take it steady with the training for the first couple of years.

 

[Fenmaned]

Mine is turning out to be a cracking working dog so far. Agree not really a breed as you couldn’t replicate him, but so far in early days he is pretty steady, sits at the bottom of a high seat well, has blood tracked and found shot deer well. He’s a big boy and only 18months old so a long way to go. I’ve noticed training takes much longer than say a springer, but I think patience will pay off and I think when I introduce more bird work he will not be perfect but a good multipurpose all round worker. Pheasant flushes are good so far…The only thing I’m not really seeing yet is indication and pointing on a stalk. Strange considering the EP, Griffon cross. Maybe that will come with time, but maybe he won’t as he seems to like having head to ground more sniffing and hunting at ground level. Can’t expect to have it all though!

I take it your boy is a Fenlander. The original Korthols/Gwp I used was a late pointer, had to rein him in a lot, then took him beating a few times doing a lot of heel work in the beating line, that got him more focused and he started to indicate and point. Some of them mature late mentally, so take it steady with the training for the first couple of years.

I believe Mantu is from the same litter, he is much the same. Great quartering working style in the sugar beet but too impatient to point for long, more conditioning needed. No problem with retrieving freshly shot game., live birds come back a live too. My youtube Edward Carlile several videos of my dogs working

 

[hendrix's rifle]

I am from Norfolk UK, I do a lot of rough shooting and beating locally. Usually I use a shot gun mainly but stalk(if you can call it stalking) rabbits and the such with the air rifle. I noticed this thread whilst researching the Fenlander when it came up next to it.

I am the breeder of the Fenlander, the one that someone early in this thread said 'Wouldn't touch with a barge pole!' and many others have laughed at and ridiculed. I am astounded that people who have not met me or my dogs, read my website fully or viewed the many Youtube videos hunting wild Fen pheasant or working them have the right to write such defamatory statements, which have damaged my business. They are not particularly bred for stalking but individuals in each litter would excel at it, like in most HPR Litters. This is over 20 years of careful breeding to get to a sturdy, larger than English springer size, bobtailed(Brittany) and wirecoated(Korthols) HPR, that will quarter out front and respond like a springer, to work my style of hunting.... working ability first. Several other gun dog breeds and working lines have been explored and taken out of the gene pool, at some cost and time. The larger proportion of pups go as pets as the majority of gundogs generally do. I have many people coming back for second, third and even a fourth. I trade marked the Fenlander to protect the name from the same fate as the labradoodle's original breeder had with the openly abused, indiscriminate designer breeding craze. I wish to assure any of those considering a Fenlander for working disciplines or family life, there is one to fit most.

So it's a mongrel?

 

[Fenmaned]

So it's a mongrel?

All dogs are mongrels, just some are very inbred and we call them pure bred perhaps?

 

[Fenmaned]

If the two breeds are compatible on a first cross ( which ever way it works out ) What i mean is say
A border collie with a greyhound brain is as likely as as the other way around . That's not total disaster but its not what the breeder would have wanted / desired for the job at hand - But there are way worse crosses
Now If we mated a Lab with a Chesapeake as a gun dog , Whatever you got its would work fine ( not a lurcher though ) It could still have a high performance as a Duck or Game Retriever . I know i have slipped away talking gundogs but its just to make the point - Many generations to get breeding true to type. Are all the puppy owners going to keep those pups all of the dogs lives?
Bedlington x Whippet would be similar to the Chez x lab , you cannot really end up with a useless dog for purpose

This is where a little bit of sense is put forward....a lab with another retrieving breed is likely to work well, a lab with a springer or a cocker not so likely to produce many usable dogs. I say usable, you need to work out what you are looking for and breed back several generations. 8 generations F8 with no other genetic input is what the kennel club define and 200 plus in the country before they would consider. But that is the last place I would expose the Fenlander to. I breed for myself and working will aways comes before any standard or show bias.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

All dogs are mongrels, just some are very inbred and we call them pure bred perhaps?

I've got nothing against pointer x labs whatsoever and I think they're great dogs for the best part... But Fenlander? In my eyes, it isn't a breed. Pennine pointer I can sort of understand but it's still a X breed

 

[Fenmaned]

It looks like he’s busy inventing the GLP



View attachment 366864

or the Munsterlander.


View attachment 366865

Maybe someone should tell him it’s already been done?

That's where they stopped mixing, spaniels with German pointers, same as the French pointing spaniel. The Fenlander, if you cared to read on, after the successful English springer/Weimaraner mix had English pointer blood which introduced a bit too much speed, then Brittany for the bobtail gene and then recently Korthols/GWP blood for the wire coat...Now, with a handful of carefully selected dogs and bitches with strong working instincts there is enough gene pool to breed offspring under 8% coefficient, lower than most pure breeds.

 

[Fenmaned]

I've got nothing against pointer x labs whatsoever and I think they're great dogs for the best part... But Fenlander? In my eyes, it isn't a breed. Pennine pointer I can sort of understand but it's still a X breed

No one ever said it was a breed! It's my strain of gundog, with my great original springer blood, bred solely for my style of shooting, in my local Fenland!

 

[Keith Edmunds]

All dogs are mongrels, just some are very inbred and we call them pure bred perhaps?

Well that statement just isn't correct is it. There are plenty of pure-bred 'breeds' with enormous global gene-pools. Out of interest what %COI are you considering as 'inbred' as opposed to 'line-bred?

Either way, very best of luck to you. I think it is great that people are experimenting with various crosses. Proper 'lines' or 'strains' take an age to establish but if that is your aim then I am sure that you will get there, in time. In the mean time, enjoy the cross-breeding and enjoy the start of creating a 'strain'.

 

[Dunwaters]

That's where they stopped mixing, spaniels with German pointers, same as the French pointing spaniel. The Fenlander, if you cared to read on, after the successful English springer/Weimaraner mix had English pointer blood which introduced a bit too much speed, then Brittany for the bobtail gene and then recently Korthols/GWP blood for the wire coat...Now, with a handful of carefully selected dogs and bitches with strong working instincts there is enough gene pool to breed offspring under 8% coefficient, lower than most pure breeds.

I’ve been training, shooting over and competing with HPR’s for over 40 years, so forgive my scepticism.
I’m genuinely interested in your response to my questions.
You have chosen a very difficult path to follow in trying to establish a new breed or type.
It would have been far easier to take one of the recognised breeds and line bred them to enhance your required characteristics.
That way you could have entered your dogs in KC recognised events and had them independently judged for both working ability and physical appearance.



What are the specific physical and working characteristics that separate your dogs from other HPR’s?
What do you do with the dogs that don’t match your physical or working standards?
Are they culled or otherwise removed from the gene pool?
How are your dogs assessed for compliance with type standards?
Do you have a type standard and could we see a copy please?
Have your dogs ever been assessed for working ability by a qualified HPR panel judge?

 

[Rake Aboot]

Every proper lurcher man I know said Hancock was nothing more than a puppy farmer / peddlar ... there's lads out there breeding proper working cross collie lurchers... problem is finding one... or much like any of the gundog breeds, finding one where the owner isn't chatting nonsence sadly.

I've not been out with a lurcher for years, but managed to see his video the other day and brought back fond memories that fawn dog is a cracker.

Strangely , I’m a proper lurcherman and I know and have know many many proper lurchermen in my time.

Best rabbit dog I’ve had was a Hancock and I’ve collected dogs for others from him as well and his daughter. All went on to work well enough.
I’d say it’s more about the abilities of the lurcherman than the fact it’s a Hancock dog.
That’s not a dig btw. It’s simply that I’ve herd this argument about Hancock dogs before and it doesn’t hold water in my opinion

 

[Fenmaned]

I’ve been training, shooting over and competing with HPR’s for over 40 years, so forgive my scepticism.
I’m genuinely interested in your response to my questions.
You have chosen a very difficult path to follow in trying to establish a new breed or type.
It would have been far easier to take one of the recognised breeds and line bred them to enhance your required characteristics.
That way you could have entered your dogs in KC recognised events and had them independently judged for both working ability and physical appearance.



What are the specific physical and working characteristics that separate your dogs from other HPR’s?
What do you do with the dogs that don’t match your physical or working standards?
Are they culled or otherwise removed from the gene pool?
How are your dogs assessed for compliance with type standards?
Do you have a type standard and could we see a copy please?
Have your dogs ever been assessed for working ability by a qualified HPR panel judge?

Thank you for your understanding response. I breed for myself, not for KC recognition. Any dog that by 18mth doesn't have my preferred strong working drive, style and instinct doesn't get bred from and is pet homed. A tall, heavy built English Springer size, 23in at shoulder, bobtailed(Brittany) short wirehaired (Korthols/GWP) has been the angle from the begining for working sugar beet, arable, dykes, drains, woods. Should quarter like a good springer 20-30 yards out, point, hold till I send them in or flush myself, retrieve to hand

 

[Dunwaters]

Thank you for your understanding response. I breed for myself, not for KC recognition. Any dog that by 18mth doesn't have my preferred strong working drive, style and instinct doesn't get bred from and is pet homed. A tall, heavy built English Springer size, 23in at shoulder, bobtailed(Brittany) short wirehaired (Korthols/GWP) has been the angle from the begining for working sugar beet, arable, dykes, drains, woods. Should quarter like a good springer 20-30 yards out, point, hold till I send them in or flush myself, retrieve to hand

Thanks for the reply, I’m taking the dogs physical appearance and working first.
The physical appearance of the dog is highly subjective, but that’s quite a specification, lose the bob tail requirement and a lot more alternatives open up.
However with the difficulty in getting pups docked nowadays it’s definitely a solution.
Your dogs quartering close like a good springer isn’t necessary, or at least it shouldn’t be necessary.
The whole purpose of a pointer is to cover a wide area to locate game and once located, to hold point until otherwise instructed. So letting them out a bit shouldn’t be a problem.
This was an absolute revelation when I shifted from springers to my first pointer, you dont need or want a pointing dog close most of the time, if you do want it close call it in. The dog should adjust.
My main criticism of what you are doing would centre on the lack of official recognition which excludes your dogs from competition and independent assessment.
Without a history of success in competition against other HPR’s, or at least having your dogs compete and being formally assessed against each other, I have no standard by which to judge your dogs.
That, and the fact that I can’t compete with one even if it turns out to be beautifully trained and a brilliant hunter, is why I wouldn’t have one or recommend one over an established breed.
YMMV.

Stay safe.

 

[SikaSeeker]

Good luck to him, he’s obviously passionate about this line of dogs. If he waits to call them a name, why not.