Finding my lands and Maximum Overall Lenght.

[Blacknsilver]

Hi Guys. Just starting to load develop my .223 which I have just bought. It's got a longer throat so it can take the nato 556 case.
I have been trying a few ways to find my lands.
A few cases that I had you could slide a bullet into the neck with slight resistance. (69gr TMK)
i have then taken out the firing pin out of the bolt. One to check how well the empty case cycles.
I put the bullet in the neck of the case stuck out a fair way and slowly fed it in. Slowly closed the bolt behind. A few goes at this due to the bullet getting stuck at the lands but a few occasions it seemed to work. The bullet was pushed in to the case and I retrieved it giving me in theory giving me the distance to the lands. 2.375 I did this on a few goes resulting in the same measurement. So if I back off to COAL 2.350 I should be just off the lands?
i have a comparator bolt giving me an ogive of 1.750.

The data on the .223 says a Maximum over all length of 2.260.
Mine would be 2.350.
Am I safe to proceed?
I attempet to load a couple at the specs shown but the bullet would not seat in the case. Heard a. Crunch of the powder and the bullet was left in the die.
Luckly I checked a couple of cases only to notice that what I was thought and told about the brass that came with the rifle was FL sized was not. Some you could seat the bullet in by hand.
Hence using one of those to find the lands and trying to save some money in not buying an OAL gauge.
Any help would be helpful.
Thanks

 

[takbok]

2.350" is perfectly safe to load to as long as they chamber in your rifle. Go ahead and shoot some different loads with increasing charges now.

 

[Blacknsilver]

I chambered it a few times and it was fine. Also coming back out the same size as it went in so looks like it's just off.
Thanks for the help.
What I can't understand is that the maximum Lenght of 2.250 with the lowest charge of powder of H4895 of 24 gr would not seat. It was pushing the bullet out and also hearing the crush. I am hoping it was the cases that have not been sized correctly. Surly there should be enough room in there to take the bullet and the powder?

 

[Heym SR20]

Take a resized case, but unprimed and unloaded and seat a bullet a bit long - but seat it loosely so as doesn't crimp. Then take a lighted candle and smoke the bullet so that it is covered in soot. Chamber it and withdraw. You should see marks on the bullet where it has hit the lands (if you dont its not long enough). Take it back to the seating die, turn the adjster quarter or half a turn, smoke and repeat. Keep repeating until you don't see any marks on the bullet. That's max chamber length for that bullet. Knock it back ten to 20 thou and you are good to go.

 

[Muir]

Forget the darned lands. Load to the manufacturers recommended OAL.
I just spent 7 days shooting pint-sized (and smaller) prairiedogs. I was hitting 'dogs' out to 400-450 yards. Anything inside of 300 was mush, a close shot was 200 yards. I was using a bone stock Ruger American 223/5.56 shooting 50 grain Noslers loaded to Nosler's recommended OAL. Fed from the magazine and chambered effortlessly. ~Muir

 

[Blacknsilver]

Thanks guys.
I should have mentioned that the .223 was bought mainly for target. So looking for every advantage going.
It sound very conflicting on what is read a watched on the subject of finding the lands and where it should be seated. I supose its suck it and see.
Hope to get some time today to load a few up.

 

[25 Sharps]

Take a resized case, but unprimed and unloaded and seat a bullet a bit long - but seat it loosely so as doesn't crimp. Then take a lighted candle and smoke the bullet so that it is covered in soot. Chamber it and withdraw. You should see marks on the bullet where it has hit the lands (if you dont its not long enough). Take it back to the seating die, turn the adjster quarter or half a turn, smoke and repeat. Keep repeating until you don't see any marks on the bullet. That's max chamber length for that bullet. Knock it back ten to 20 thou and you are good to go.

This is what I do with a modern twist, a black (or any) permant marker do it with the ink still wet and the rifling will expose the copper where it makes contact.

Will always do this if I'm loading close to the lands but not if I'm loading to SAAMI length / published data, though wish I had last week with the fire forming loads for the creedmoor. Loaded some S&B FMJ to 10 thou shorter than SAAMI and the cartridges didn't chamber well, I thought it was the formed .243 brass but shot a couple of rounds and knew something wasn't rightt so packed up and went home. Measured with this bullet the next day and found it was contacting the lands at 2.811", so 14 thou shorter than SAAMI! This is probably down to the rounded ogive compared to the longer ogive the round was designed for, knocked them back to 2.8" and they shoot quite well for a forming load.

As for measuring I use a sized case with 2 opposing Dremel cuts into the neck down to the shoulder, this allows you to push a bullets in and chamber then carefully remove, the lands will seat the bullet but there is enough tension to hold the bullet in place for measurement.

If you're not sure on your brass I'd FL size it all so you know you're starting from an even start point with each case. If its primed remove the primer pin first.

 

[Blacknsilver]

Yes I plan on resizing the lot. I have 20 live primers in which isn't ideal.
My concerns started when I tired to seat the bullet at stated Lenght. 2.260 and it left the bullet in the die afterwards.
I have only ever reloaded for the .204 and I must of landed on my feet with it as I found a load very quickly for it.
The new .223 has been chambered in .223 Wylde. I was unsure if this made a difference in COAL.

 

[25 Sharps]

Yes I plan on resizing the lot. I have 20 live primers in which isn't ideal.
My concerns started when I tired to seat the bullet at stated Lenght. 2.260 and it left the bullet in the die afterwards.
I have only ever reloaded for the .204 and I must of landed on my feet with it as I found a load very quickly for it.
The new .223 has been chambered in .223 Wylde. I was unsure if this made a difference in COAL.

It will do as that's the point, a longer throat to take a longer load, it doesn't mean you can't load to standard .223 rem COAL, some bullets cope with jump some don't. I load 69 gr TMKs for my .223 which has a long throat so they are longer than 2.26" although I'm playing with length still as best accuracy is longer than fits in the mag so I'm going back in ten thou increments.

You were lucky with the .204 but most of the and loads I've loaded have been along similar lines not too much effort to get a useable load, if you want to drag every last bit of accuracy out thats different but I aim fon1/2 to 1 moa and then just get on shooting as after that the limiting factor would be me.

 

[Blacknsilver]

Just back from swimming with the twins. Hopefully get an hour window later to test a few loads.
Thanks for all the help guys.

 

[Muir]

Have you figured out why you want to seat close to the lands? Or is this just accepted as some 'rule' of reloading? I recently shot some Federal Gold Medal Match 308 loads. They shot into little bug-hole groups and yet, I don't remember Federal ever asking me for a chamber / throat measurement. Same with some Hornady 125 grain SST loads for a 7.62x39 I shot recently in my CZ. Under 3/4 inch at 100 from a 16.5 inch carbine with a low powered scope. The boys from Grand Island never once called me to ask.... This practice of seating X-thou off the lands has become so ingrained in modern reloaders that it has become some kind of gospel. It isn't. ~Muir

 

[Blacknsilver]

Reading and YouTube videos have lead me to believe that it will improve accuracy. So I thought I may as well start off right. Or wrong depending on which way it goes.
Maybe it will be more of a mental thing.
Either way. Just done 25 loads. FL sized. Cleaned and picked all cases that are the same length. Loaded from min to max stepping up in .5 increments. 5 of each. Length are what I think is 25 th short of the lands.
If they turn out that they don't shoot well then I will load by the book.
I do appreciate all advise.

Anyone share there fireing technique?
I fire one let barrel cool?
Fire all 5 with the same cheek weld. Let barrel cool.
Clean or use pull through between different loads?

 

[Muir]

Reading and YouTube videos have lead me to believe that it will improve accuracy. So I thought I may as well start off right. Or wrong depending on which way it goes.
Maybe it will be more of a mental thing.
Either way. Just done 25 loads. FL sized. Cleaned and picked all cases that are the same length. Loaded from min to max stepping up in .5 increments. 5 of each. Length are what I think is 25 th short of the lands.
If they turn out that they don't shoot well then I will load by the book.
I do appreciate all advise.

Anyone share there fireing technique?
I fire one let barrel cool?
Fire all 5 with the same cheek weld. Let barrel cool.
Clean or use pull through between different loads?

I'm sure your loads will be fine but don't think that this is the only way to get good accuracy. Bullet and powder makers don't just randomly suggest a seating depth and a powder charge. It's usually done for a reason.

I just shoot. Fire five and move to the next. I would run a patch through (or pull through) between different powder makes but not charges of the same weight. I don't think even that is too critical.~Muir

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

no factory rifle requires land busting OAL to produce accurate (sub 0.5 MOA) loads

You are looking for the best charge level at this stage
ignore the OAL and just load to Book OAL

or AT LEAST one calibre depth of shank seated into the neck

compressed loads are not a problem because they are compressed
Only compressed loads of the wrong powder are a problem!

0.5gr is a big jump in a small case

what powder are you using?

 

[Blacknsilver]

I decided to go with H4895 powder. 69gr TMK Gold medal match primers.
24 being the start and not exceed 26.
I am intrigued to see this out come. Un sure if it will be this week as I'm away Thursday for a few days.
The wind is blowing a gale at the moment.
Fingers crossed for tomorrow.
I might fall lucky. You never know.
Woukd .2gr be a better work up on the .223?

 

[takbok]

I decided to go with H4895 powder. 69gr TMK Gold medal match primers.
24 being the start and not exceed 26.
I am intrigued to see this out come. Un sure if it will be this week as I'm away Thursday for a few days.
The wind is blowing a gale at the moment.
Fingers crossed for tomorrow.
I might fall lucky. You never know.
Woukd .2gr be a better work up on the .223?

I generally use 2% increments for my loads. If you're within the manufacturers recommended limits you'll be fine, providing you're carefully watching for signs of high pressure.

 

[25 Sharps]

Reading and YouTube videos have lead me to believe that it will improve accuracy. So I thought I may as well start off right. Or wrong depending on which way it goes.
Maybe it will be more of a mental thing.
Either way. Just done 25 loads. FL sized. Cleaned and picked all cases that are the same length. Loaded from min to max stepping up in .5 increments. 5 of each. Length are what I think is 25 th short of the lands.
If they turn out that they don't shoot well then I will load by the book.
I do appreciate all advise.

Anyone share there fireing technique?
I fire one let barrel cool?
Fire all 5 with the same cheek weld. Let barrel cool.
Clean or use pull through between different loads?

I tend to go up in .3 gr increments in 0.223, .5 is quite a big jump in such a small cartridge (I go .1 in hornet and .5 in 0.308/ 6.5CM / 6.5x55) as much as pressure you may jump over an accuracy node, if my scales could measure it I'd go 0.25gr as this would be roughly 1%.

In terms of shooting I loosely follow the OCW method.

Shoot the weights in a round robin style so 1 round of each weight for 5 rounds (the target sheets I use have 5 targets!) in turn, then let it cool (if I have time) I then start with the 5th weight and work back down to the first, cool and repeat first to fifth and if I have time or pull one cool and repeat fifth to first.

Doing it the above way means the weights get an even spread in terms of barrel cleanliness and barrel heating, if you fired the same 20 rounds 1 weight batch at time without cleaning then the barrel will be a good deal dirtier hotter for the 20th round, if that makes sense.

I may then give a pull through if doing another 25, I know this only removes superficial fouling so won't give exactly the same base point as for the first 25 but this is how my rifles are shot anyway as i only clean when accuracy goes off.

 

[Blacknsilver]

Massive help from all who has replied. Hope to test tonight.
Thanks.

 

[Cyres]

I suggest you look on ChesterP lengthy thread on this and his efforts to find optimal COL for his .223 with 60grn TMK's.

D