Smallholder
Well-Known Member
It would be interesting and possibly useful to see the forged SGC, to see if it would be easy to spot.
Paying well over the asking price would would make me very suspicious.
Forged Certificates
- Thread starter Jamouk
- Start date
It would be interesting and possibly useful to see the forged SGC, to see if it would be easy to spot.
Paying well over the asking price would would make me very suspicious.
To forge a certificate you would need to get your hands on a genuine one as a model. Not the easiest of tasks if you are a non-holder and outside regular shooting circles. Have to wonder how he went about it although I guess we will never know for obvious reasons. It seems that this case was the reason for all that fuss about potentially forged certificates before Christmas.
dvbookshop
Well-Known Member
Apparently it was the guy on the news yesterday who murdered his mother and sister prior to a mass shooting that was thankfully averted.
There is a proscribed form in law and the act shows a copy of it. Then the police send out information on how to spot fakes, or at least the things to look for in a real one, so it could be relatively easy to forge if you are in to all that sort of stuff.
Then there is one of our local forces that just make up their own FAC/SGCs and that always causes an issue (how are they even allowed to get away with that?).
I have had a couple of customers turn up here with certificates on A5 paper. Makes it hard to write all the ammo purchases on. I've had to contact the force concerned to get clarification that it is indeed genuine.
According to the BBC, the shotgun was exchanged on the evening of the 12th of September and the gun was used in the early hours of the 13th. The seller reported the sale on the 12th but as it was "out of hours" for the police, the fact that it had been sold to a fictitious certificate holder was not picked up.
No doubt there'll be screams for 3 working days' notice to sell /purchase a firearm/shotgun coming up
No doubt there'll be screams for 3 working days' notice to sell /purchase a firearm/shotgun coming up
Whitefront
Well-Known Member
Quote from Yvette Cooper: "This terrible case has exposed deep and long-standing weaknesses in private firearms sales, and we are urgently looking at how we can tighten these controls."
The Bedfordshire PCC has already written to her demanding an urgent review of the relevant legislation. He said the ease with which Prosper was able to buy a gun exposed “serious shortcomings” in the current system, adding: “I believe that new legislation is needed to ensure public safety and to restore confidence in firearms licensing policy and process when firearms are sold or exchanged.
“I believe that one viable option would be for anyone wishing to purchase a firearm to provide documented confirmation from the police service that they have a legitimate entitlement to own a firearm, as well as proof of identity to the vendor. This confirmation needs to be shared by the police with the vendor ahead of sale and exchange.”
The Bedfordshire PCC has already written to her demanding an urgent review of the relevant legislation. He said the ease with which Prosper was able to buy a gun exposed “serious shortcomings” in the current system, adding: “I believe that new legislation is needed to ensure public safety and to restore confidence in firearms licensing policy and process when firearms are sold or exchanged.
“I believe that one viable option would be for anyone wishing to purchase a firearm to provide documented confirmation from the police service that they have a legitimate entitlement to own a firearm, as well as proof of identity to the vendor. This confirmation needs to be shared by the police with the vendor ahead of sale and exchange.”
That documented confirmation, exists it is called an FAC or SGC, the issue is how easy it was to fake, but as usual it’s are fault, just ask to see further photo proof of identify like passport or driving licence.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Or they could get rid of the antiquated paper system and bring in something on a par with electronic money transfers, i.e. the transaction goes through a national fld hub before it can be approved in live time. Had such a system been in place the shotgun transfer would have failed.
long_range_rob
Well-Known Member
Apparently the criminal/murderer/nutter who did this found a blank copy of an SGC on line and effectively photoshopped an SGC.
Agree it already exists. And is actually very very difficult to fake. See link. The issue is probably very few SGC/FAC holders are aware of the security features. The real issue is education. A simple email with this link to every holder in the UK once a year should be v easy to organise
Know your UK firearms documents
Project RUTIC is the NCA response to the rising threat of fraudulent copies of firearms documents being used in an atte...
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TringSaint
Well-Known Member
Maybe they need to consider a card based license with biometrics built in (just like the modern passports) and use the paper license as a counterpart showing what is licensed and ammo purchases, etc.
That would make the forging process much harder but would likely uplift the cost by another £50 as the cards aren’t that cheap.
Kyle_hill98
Well-Known Member
Just googled this to see if anything came up, there are plenty of photos of SGC/FAC on google some are even blanks...
Just goes to show how easy it could be done...
Again not our fault, but let's see what restrictions/changes get put on us this time
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I did the same. Pretty shockingJust googled this to see if anything came up, there are plenty of photos of SGC/FAC on good some are even blanks...
Just goes to show how easy it could be done...
Again not our fault, but let's see what restrictions/changes get put on us this time
Would take about 5 mins to mock up a decent copy
Also years ago they came on weird nonstandard size paper
Now it's just normal cream A4 printed in an office
That's a lost security feature in itself
Post no 34
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Fundamentally if somebody wants to obtain a firearm illegally it can be done. If somebody wants to commit murder it can be done with a firearm or any other multitude of implements. The individual who committed the crimes in this case has been sentenced to a very long time in prison.
I don’t think changing the law will do anything much to stop such crimes happening. Vast majority of guncrime happens with handguns which are pretty much forbidden for legal use in the mainland UK.
There is a question as to what has gone wrong with some elements of our society that makes some young men feel compelled to go down such a path of violence. The solution probably lies in education, the economy and providing good life opportunities.
But in a population of 70 million people there will always be wronguns and that’s why have a criminal justice system.
I don’t think changing the law will do anything much to stop such crimes happening. Vast majority of guncrime happens with handguns which are pretty much forbidden for legal use in the mainland UK.
There is a question as to what has gone wrong with some elements of our society that makes some young men feel compelled to go down such a path of violence. The solution probably lies in education, the economy and providing good life opportunities.
But in a population of 70 million people there will always be wronguns and that’s why have a criminal justice system.
On the gov website all 4 pages ready to print out and fill in as required.
Hardly the work of a master criminal to print it out.
Hardly the work of a master criminal to print it out.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
Of course the other point of view, which I always used to say, is that "face to face" is less safe that when these things could be bought at distance. At distance a seller was always able to make a telephone call, during office hours, to the buyer's police force and check the bona fides. With face to face, especially if bought outside office hours one presently cannot.
So what's the answer?
Maybe a 24/7 contact number (which would be to a normal force control room) whereby on giving them the supposed FAC or SGC number the validity can be confirmed? After all the records can be accessed 24/7 even if the force's Firearms Licensing Department is closed after 4pm or on weekends. So there maybe needs to be a line on an FAC or SGC to advise if checking validity to call such and such a number and quote the number of the FAC or SGC?
One thing with the old white SGC was that the "paper" that was used couldn't be torn as you could you'd tear up a postcard. There was some sort of plastic in the "paper". But then there's few now can remember such things.
So what's the answer?
Maybe a 24/7 contact number (which would be to a normal force control room) whereby on giving them the supposed FAC or SGC number the validity can be confirmed? After all the records can be accessed 24/7 even if the force's Firearms Licensing Department is closed after 4pm or on weekends. So there maybe needs to be a line on an FAC or SGC to advise if checking validity to call such and such a number and quote the number of the FAC or SGC?
One thing with the old white SGC was that the "paper" that was used couldn't be torn as you could you'd tear up a postcard. There was some sort of plastic in the "paper". But then there's few now can remember such things.
If there were some system whereby a prospective buyer/seller could contact the issuing force to confirm the other party has a valid certificate (in the absence of a better certificate, which would take time and money to develop) that might be good. But that would involve certificate holders agreeing to this at the point of issue and, probably a bigger problem, having someone available to answer the 'phone in office hours.
As a Bedfordshire member I read the BBC article regarding the conviction of the murderer N Prosper, he killed his family but was planning to attack the children and staff at his old primary school fortunately the police arrested him before he got there another shocking event. In the article he obtained a legally owned shotgun by going online and learning how to produce a fake SGC. He then conducted a private sale with an individual who checked his certificate and made the sale. The SGC holder involved in the sale was not prosecuted as the police said it would need an “Expert” to tell it was a fake. The police are now looking in to what changes they may have to make to prevent another incident, also concerning for anyone selling privately. Equally worrying another troubled youngster spending all his time online and developing a want to murder people for no reason other than to be “ Infamous “
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