FOX Bullets expansion.

[hammo]

I also contacted FOX Bullets, got a quick and sensible response. I asked out of interest if there might be a higher BC design in the pipeline :-


Hello,



thank you for your interesting in our products.



For now we are not planning to make any changes in the design. As you probably noticed, our bullets have a different shape compared to the other monolithic bullets. And there is a good reason for this.



We sacrified a little bit the BC in order to be able to have a shorter bullet, this way is possible to use normal weight bullets in standard twist rates, like for example a 165gr bullet in a 1:11 twist in a 308win, or a 139gr bullet in a 1:8twist in a 6,5x55 or 6,5Creed.



We also created a bullet with a very fast expansion, so even the bullets looses slightly more speed, it will still expand at the impact.





Best regards,

Andrej Janežič

 

[buck52]

Why would the result at 100 mtrs make you think they will be good at 300m
The opposite applies, all copper bullets need speed to work properly, the further downrage these things get the worse they perform.

Fired a few test rounds of Fox 160gr bullets, at 100m expansion was impressive. I know that's not far out, but feel confident they will expand to 300m.
Just wanted to see a first hand result. Fired into a sack of loose course sand.
Accuracy looked good, but will need to get on the Bipod and fire again under more stable conditions.
Encouraging results for those like me who worried about poor expansion

 

[hammo]

Why would the result at 100 mtrs make you think they will be good at 300m
The opposite applies, all copper bullets need speed to work properly, the further downrage these things get the worse they perform.

Obviously. I think everyone here understands the laws of diminishing returns with mono's.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Why would the result at 100 mtrs make you think they will be good at 300m
The opposite applies, all copper bullets need speed to work properly, the further downrage these things get the worse they perform.

All Bullets/Projectiles require velocity to initiate expansion. full stop
To assert that copper or monolithic are somehow unique in this way is an odd statement

Hollow points expand aggressively due to the larger meplat and hollow point design capturing tissue mass and driving the front open further causing forces to be directed into the core.
Ballistic tips do not increase expansion, in fact pull the tips of any BT bullet and watch them expand even more violently than with the tips in place.

Exposed tip Soft Points expand in exactly the same way but in a more controlled, or put more accurately, slower manner.
The control comes from the assumptions of terminal velocity the manufactuers make them in line with.
Drive a soft point at 4200 instead of 3000 and watch it fragment like a hollow point.
The soft nature of the lead is what allows it to open under force and abrasion.

Not all monolithics follow the same design criteria
Some have much bigger meplat and corresponding hollow points than others

The Fox bullets are not designed with high BC in mind.
Primary function is reliable expansion at usual hunting ranges
The vast majority of shots in European hunting terms are well under 300m
Why develop a bullet for the single digit percentile of hunters?

Choose the bullets with the largest meplat and hollow points
Ideally those that have variable diameter deep into the shank
Those bullets will maintain expansion when matched to target size/density and ranges beyond where most people stop shooting quarry

That said I have taken some large and small game at ranges out to 250yds with a 20" .308 with a MV of 2820 and none of them suffered from failed expansion
Terminal velocity at 250 on those is 2130fps

This big fella didn't notice any failure to expand
Entry and Exit are neat
Carcase damage was excellent with no major external bruising
internal damage was emphatic with a huge amount of blood loss very quickly from the nose and mouth

 

[Odders]

The wee dog be like "OK dad, can we go home now, I'm bleedin' soaked..."

 

[buck52]

Obviously. I think everyone here understands the laws of diminishing returns with mono's.

Exactly, that was the reason for my question!

 

[buck52]

All Bullets/Projectiles require velocity to initiate expansion. full stop
To assert that copper or monolithic are somehow unique in this way is an odd statement

Hollow points expand aggressively due to the larger meplat and hollow point design capturing tissue mass and driving the front open further causing forces to be directed into the core.
Ballistic tips do not increase expansion, in fact pull the tips of any BT bullet and watch them expand even more violently than with the tips in place.

Exposed tip Soft Points expand in exactly the same way but in a more controlled, or put more accurately, slower manner.
The control comes from the assumptions of terminal velocity the manufactuers make them in line with.
Drive a soft point at 4200 instead of 3000 and watch it fragment like a hollow point.
The soft nature of the lead is what allows it to open under force and abrasion.

Not all monolithics follow the same design criteria
Some have much bigger meplat and corresponding hollow points than others

The Fox bullets are not designed with high BC in mind.
Primary function is reliable expansion at usual hunting ranges
The vast majority of shots in European hunting terms are well under 300m
Why develop a bullet for the single digit percentile of hunters?

Choose the bullets with the largest meplat and hollow points
Ideally those that have variable diameter deep into the shank
Those bullets will maintain expansion when matched to target size/density and ranges beyond where most people stop shooting quarry

That said I have taken some large and small game at ranges out to 250yds with a 20" .308 with a MV of 2820 and none of them suffered from failed expansion
Terminal velocity at 250 on those is 2130fps

This big fella didn't notice any failure to expand
Entry and Exit are neat
Carcase damage was excellent with no major external bruising
internal damage was emphatic with a huge amount of blood loss very quickly from the nose and mouth

Ed, I wasnt "knocking" Fox bullets, but it is a fact that "mono" bullets need more velocity downrange to expand than traditional bullets.
To restate the obvious I merely asked the poster why he would assume that 100 yrd expansion results would indicate acceptable downrange performance.

All Bullets/Projectiles require velocity to initiate expansion. full stop, there is no need to state the obvious.
To assert that copper or monolithic are somehow unique in this way is an odd statement, it is NOT odd, it is a fact that mono needs higher velocity!

 

[Tom D]

Some monolithic manufacturers give a velocity to which the bullet is supposed to expand, lehigh claim 1500fps for the controlled chaos, fox 1600fps. Well if you know your BC and your MV then you can work out the range at which they will theoretically perform. We need some real world data of course to show whether the claims are true.

One thing to note is that no bullet will expand or kill as well at 1500fps as it does at 2500fps. With any long range shot the risks of a prolonged death go up.

 

[cjm1066]

I used a huge number of monolithic bullets in air guns and 22" rim fire.

I also use monolithic in 25/06 and some 308 Fox to try.

I suppose the question is why we tried jacketed lead, it's a development of paper patches?? Perhaps if we had CNC technology we would have gone straight to monolithics and avoided 150 years of jacketed bullets.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

To assert that copper or monolithic are somehow unique in this way is an odd statement, it is NOT odd, it is a fact that mono needs higher velocity!

Its no more relevant to monolithic than it is to cup and core lead bullets.
Its a blanket statement that only applies to some monolithics and is directly linked to the design and the material

Variable expansion is present across the board of all bullets
Its why we have a range of bullets for all game size and skin thickness.
Nosler Partition, Swift Sirocco/A-Frame, Norma Kalihari/Oryx, Hornady DG, Speer Grand Slam, Woodleigh Weldcore, Trophy Bonded etc etc
All designed to expand less at similar terminal velocities as well as factoring in the requirement of controlled/slower expansion at reduced terminal velocities from large calibre cartridges that have MV below 2600fps

The same range applies to monolithics

lehigh claim 1500fps for the controlled chaos,
fox 1600fps.

LeHeigh and Peregrine among others make subsonic monolthics for example
clue is in the name.. expansion at below 1000fps down to 750fps in some cases
DRT make a sintered metal extremely frangible monolithic - breaks up at a wide range of velocities
Hasler Ariete used to come in Hollow point form in pure copper that was devastatingly frangible down to very low velocities
Sauvestre Delayed Expansion - designed for DG calibres with low MV
Sax KJR-SR and KJR-S has a huge meplat and ballistic tip to allow it to expand at lower terminal velocities
Brenneke TUG (whilst lead free it is not strictly a monolithic) designed to expand rapidly and often stay in the target as a result
Brenneke TAG - similar to Sax KJR with huge meplat covered by a larger than usual ballistic tip - designed with fragmentation in mind to increase expansion down to lower velocities
Neilsen - the Danish makers moderators also make a frangible brass bullet designed to expand violently at lower velocities and break into 4 pieces most of which will remain in the target

The distinction is expansion by design of one material
Not expansion by material choice by having a soft core with various ways of exposing it to the friction and pressure on impact.

Granted the majority of people only know or have experience of one kind/design of monolithic and the historical evolution of many of them (XLC/TSX/TTSX - GMX ) has seen a response by the manufacturer to poor expansion at range by one of two changes:

1) drop the weight class and as a result get higher MV and higher terminal velocities
2) use hotter ammo (Superformance) to do the same but with the same bullet weight over a faster load

That history has given most people the view that all monolithics require higher velocity and they won't expand reliably at lower velocities, often with no reference point.

There are a lot of bullets out there.
They don't all do the same thing at variable terminal velocities.

 

[User00033]

I’ve posted these pics here before. Leigh Controlled Fracturing, .300 Blackout subsonic, recovered from very dead full sized Newzealandish red deer. A completely different monolithic to what this thread is discussing. Ed’s quite correct, there’s lots of different types of bullet.

 

[Tom D]

Its no more relevant to monolithic than it is to cup and core lead bullets.
Its a blanket statement that only applies to some monolithics and is directly linked to the design and the material

Variable expansion is present across the board of all bullets
Its why we have a range of bullets for all game size and skin thickness.
Nosler Partition, Swift Sirocco/A-Frame, Norma Kalihari/Oryx, Hornady DG, Speer Grand Slam, Woodleigh Weldcore, Trophy Bonded etc etc
All designed to expand less at similar terminal velocities as well as factoring in the requirement of controlled/slower expansion at reduced terminal velocities from large calibre cartridges that have MV below 2600fps

The same range applies to monolithics



LeHeigh and Peregrine among others make subsonic monolthics for example
clue is in the name.. expansion at below 1000fps down to 750fps in some cases
DRT make a sintered metal extremely frangible monolithic - breaks up at a wide range of velocities
Hasler Ariete used to come in Hollow point form in pure copper that was devastatingly frangible down to very low velocities
Sauvestre Delayed Expansion - designed for DG calibres with low MV
Sax KJR-SR and KJR-S has a huge meplat and ballistic tip to allow it to expand at lower terminal velocities
Brenneke TUG (whilst lead free it is not strictly a monolithic) designed to expand rapidly and often stay in the target as a result
Brenneke TAG - similar to Sax KJR with huge meplat covered by a larger than usual ballistic tip - designed with fragmentation in mind to increase expansion down to lower velocities
Neilsen - the Danish makers moderators also make a frangible brass bullet designed to expand violently at lower velocities and break into 4 pieces most of which will remain in the target

The distinction is expansion by design of one material
Not expansion by material choice by having a soft core with various ways of exposing it to the friction and pressure on impact.

Granted the majority of people only know or have experience of one kind/design of monolithic and the historical evolution of many of them (XLC/TSX/TTSX - GMX ) has seen a response by the manufacturer to poor expansion at range by one of two changes:

1) drop the weight class and as a result get higher MV and higher terminal velocities
2) use hotter ammo (Superformance) to do the same but with the same bullet weight over a faster load

That history has given most people the view that all monolithics require higher velocity and they won't expand reliably at lower velocities, often with no reference point.

There are a lot of bullets out there.
They don't all do the same thing at variable terminal velocities.

Any news on those 7mm peregrines? I have a lot of time on my hands right now I wouldn't mind working up a load and testing it.

Cheers

 

[hammo]

Ed, I wasnt "knocking" Fox bullets, but it is a fact that "mono" bullets need more velocity downrange to expand than traditional bullets.
To restate the obvious I merely asked the poster why he would assume that 100 yrd expansion results would indicate acceptable downrange performance.


100m expansion was very good, 200m still good so I can deduce that 300 should still give some expansion. not sure what your point is?
If very good expansion is displayed at 100m, and my bullet will be still honking along at 2000 fps at 300m, then it does not take the brains of an Archbishop to surmise it will probably give ok expansion. All rather academic, as like the majority (I guess), most of my shots are 50 to 200m at most.
Simple logic.

 

[Karakolev]

Not bad roe at 360 m., distance escape 40m.q

 

[Scipio]

Not bad roe at 360 m., distance escape 40m.q

Hello mate, and weidmannsheil! - how did the bullet hit, and travel, in the beast?

 

[Karakolev]

Entrance 9mm, exit hole 3-4 sm, very clean shot

 

[Rutland lad]

I read this with interest noting it’s a thread 5 years old now.

I’ve been stalking with 180 grain Barnes TSX or TTSX for 13/14 years in a .300 WM. Had no issues with the bullet at all as regards expansion and it wasn’t a hot load in any way.

I moved onto Fox 124 Grain Classic Hunter in 6.5x55 about 5/6 years ago after Barnes TSX in 120 grain just wouldn’t group. I’ve shot a lot of deer with the Fox in 124 grain and again have had no expansion issues. It’s doing @ 2800fps on the chrono.

I’ve now just started using Fox in 150 grain in my .308 and I’ve got a very accurate load that’s doing @2600fps.
I’m not expecting anything different from it in terms of expansion on deer.

I only wish the Fox Peregrine was as forgiving to load up - gave up on that in 6.5, but it’s much better BC promised lots.

 

[EMcC]

Oh dear, my heads in a right spin after reading this post.
I have always been a user of H380 powder and sierra 180gr or 150gr bullets in my .308.
I now have some Fox 180 and 150gr bullets and have prepped up some cases ready to load for a trip to Croatia on driven boar in November.
I intend to use the same powder 44 and 46grs respectively but have not started and after reading this thread feel that I might be in trouble.
I have several reloading books going back over the years and the weights mentioned is what I have been using to good effect but am wondering if Fox bullets are a completely different kettle of fish to the Sierra bullets I've been using.
Any advise appreciated.

 

[geoshot]

You'll be fine @EMcC
From what I've seen Fox bullets do the biz on boar in terms of penetration and stopping power
Maybe Ed or someone can check the loads on quickload or such if you need some reassurance
Or, if you tell me what powder you have & barrel length I can run it in GRT (but I'm no expert with that)
Don't worry, I'm sure that they'll do the job

 

[EMcC]

I only have access to H380 and lots of it and my loads are for use in a standard Sporter length R8
I got the bullets from Ed when they first came on the market but I was using them in my 30-06 and Ed sent me a print from quickload for the 30-06.
Incidentally, my newest reloader manuals don't list H380 for the .308 but continue to do so for the 30-06.