Full stock rifle shifting POI

[WildBoarHunter]

I mean, apart from the usual climbing POI, which is characteristic for stutzen rifles. What could cause a shift in POI like this. I've encountered this with more than one type of ammo. First shot dead on center, second low, third center, fourth low again and so forth...
The rifle is the old type Steyr Luxus 6.5×57 stutzen, the scope is a Steyr's swing mounted Swarovski Habicht Nova and just came back from factory refurbishment.
Could this be a headspace issue.
Thanks for any help.

 

[Ttocs]

A check the barrel is free floating using a ‘fiver’ or similar bit of paper
B check your action screws
C check the action is not moving in the stock - are there any rubmarks in the bluing on the contact points

If your POI is wandering, and it’s not the scope or mounts, it’s most likely one of the above.
N

 

[Muir]

I mean, apart from the usual climbing POI, which is characteristic for stutzen rifles. What could cause a shift in POI like this. I've encountered this with more than one type of ammo. First shot dead on center, second low, third center, fourth low again and so forth...
The rifle is the old type Steyr Luxus 6.5×57 stutzen, the scope is a Steyr's swing mounted Swarovski Habicht Nova and just came back from factory refurbishment.
Could this be a headspace issue.
Thanks for any help.

Why would you think the rifle has a HEADSPACE issue? I'd love to hear that rationale. ~Muir

 

[alberta boy]

It doesn't sound like it has anything to do with headspace issues . It does sound like the action is moving in the stock , I'd check the bedding .

AB

 

[Smellydog]

Has it still got it's open sights?
If so shoot a group via them.

 

[WildBoarHunter]

Why would you think the rifle has a HEADSPACE issue? I'd love to hear that rationale. ~Muir

I've experienced two case head separations of the S&B brass. So far no problems with RWS and PPU brass.

Thanks for all replys. I will take the rifle to the gunsmith.

One of the problems is the stock. It is warped downward, pulling on the most of the length of the barrel. This will probably be hard to fix. Perhaps glass beading it would help?

 

[Smellydog]

One of the problems is the stock. It is warped downward, pulling on

I made a jig on thick plywood to steam a stock to straighten a warp.
It worked.
Involved dowels and a wedge.

 

[Bowland blades]

I mean, apart from the usual climbing POI, which is characteristic for stutzen rifles. What could cause a shift in POI like this. I've encountered this with more than one type of ammo. First shot dead on center, second low, third center, fourth low again and so forth...
The rifle is the old type Steyr Luxus 6.5×57 stutzen, the scope is a Steyr's swing mounted Swarovski Habicht Nova and just came back from factory refurbishment.
Could this be a headspace issue.
Thanks for any help.

contact on the lug or a barrel heating up , perhaps it neither and just a wind shift in direction , speed etc. I personally pillar bed every cf rifle . its got nothing to do with headspace i bet just the fact that its a stutzen leads me towards the action or barrel changing its contact point and hence the movement of the barrel on firing is different each time !
Remember when we talk MOA ( approx 1" at 100 yards ) its only 1 /60 th of a single degree - that aint a whole lot! The stutzen design is not one for match or precision shooting , its a nice pointing rifle designed to be shot free hand from an off hand stance , no Harris bipods , quad or other sticks etc
I used to shoot a mates years ago ( a lovely high grade thing in 222 ) it was a joy to use on roe deer , free handing it standing in the woods . popping a bullet into a 4" kill zone wasn't a problem - Horses for courses !

 

[webley701]

I've experienced two case head separations of the S&B brass. So far no problems with RWS and PPU brass.

Thanks for all replys. I will take the rifle to the gunsmith.

One of the problems is the stock. It is warped downward, pulling on the most of the length of the barrel. This will probably be hard to fix. Perhaps glass beading it would help?

Are these head separations with factory ammunition / new cases or with reloads? Either way it shouldn’t be happening & it’s a far more important issue than any accuracy concerns.

The gradual thinning of the case wall just above the head (which causes separations) is ultimately unavoidable but the onset of it is far faster if the cases are fired in rear locking actions such as yours and / or incorrectly resized.

 

[WildBoarHunter]

Are these head separations with factory ammunition / new cases or with reloads? Either way it shouldn’t be happening & it’s a far more important issue than any accuracy concerns.

The gradual thinning of the case wall just above the head (which causes separations) is ultimately unavoidable but the onset of it is far faster if the cases are fired in rear locking actions such as yours and / or incorrectly resized.

Both case head separations were with s&b cases that were reloaded at least once if not more. No problems with new factory ammo or reloaded PPU and RWS brass.
But I have read a lot about rear locking actions being notorious for developing head space issues.
I do like the rifle though almost more than I like my new R8. Its short, light, compact and it has that traditional germanic flavour to it that remindes me of old times. I had good luck with it on driven hunting, I got one keiler and one red deer with it. So I would really like to make it shoot straight.

 

[John Gryphon]

Its a real plus for synthetic stocks imo.

 

[webley701]

Both case head separations were with s&b cases that were reloaded at least once if not more. No problems with new factory ammo or reloaded PPU and RWS brass.
But I have read a lot about rear locking actions being notorious for developing head space issues.
I do like the rifle though almost more than I like my new R8. Its short, light, compact and it has that traditional germanic flavour to it that remindes me of old times. I had good luck with it on driven hunting, I got one keiler and one red deer with it. So I would really like to make it shoot straight.

Rear locking actions don’t develop ‘headspace’ issues as such - they just (typically) allow the cases to stretch more compared to front locking action. The actual actions are absolutely fine but resizing cases for them has to be the minimum compatible with function.

I used to shoot with someone who used an 7.62x51 Enfield Envoy for TR shooting, he managed to get head separations on his first or second reload due to resizing as much as the die permitted rather than doing the minimum relative to what would fit in the chamber. This over resizing particularly coupled with the extra stretch of the cases the Envoy (Enfield No.4 based) action allowed caused the problem. He subsequently got far better case life by resizing the minimum amount.

This mode of case failure is potentially dangerous as it can release a lot of high pressure gas back into the action.

There’s no issue at all with your rifle action - it’s a very fine rifle & must be a pleasure to use, I congratulate you on owning it. It’s just a matter of minimum resizing & checking for the recessed ring developing inside the case just above the head with a bent piece of wire (this applies to any rifle really). Ultimately though you may have to retire cases sooner than if you’d got a front locking action (everything else being equal). Brands of cases have can have slightly different wall thicknesses, hardness etc which perhaps accounts for a couple of the S&B cases failing first.

 

[Smellydog]

As you don't have issues with other brass I would forget all the rear lock up and head separation mumbo jumbo.
There is brass and then there is brass!
Have you measured the case capacity with water by weight? There may be less brass in the S&B cases!

 

[Dunwaters]

It looks like you may be putting uneven strain on the stock, possibly from a bipod or bag directly under the fore end. The rifle shifts under recoil and it needs to go back to the same spot every time. You may get better results by resting your hand on the front bag and holding the fore end yourself.
You say that the stock is warped, on that model the barrel is quite thin and should be free floating, only making contact at the front action screw, the metal fore end tip should slide or clip over the end of the barrel without putting any strain on it.
Check that the barrel is floating and make sure you’re not torquing it into contact with it while shooting.

 

[Smellydog]

It looks like you may be putting uneven strain on the stock, possibly from a bipod or bag directly under the fore end. The rifle shifts under recoil and it needs to go back to the same spot every time. You may get better results by resting your hand on the front bag and holding the fore end yourself.
You say that the stock is warped, on that model the barrel is quite thin and should be free floating, only making contact at the front action screw, the metal fore end tip should slide or clip over the end of the barrel without putting any strain on it.
Check that the barrel is floating and make sure you’re not torquing it into contact with it while shooting.

And here I was thinking all this time that a stuzen was for resting the forend on anything in the field. You know like the full stocked military rifles

 

[Dunwaters]

And here I was thinking all this time that a stuzen was for resting the forend on anything in the field. You know like the full stocked military rifles

No, have a proper look at one, both the barrel and the fore end tend to be skinny, rest it on a hard surface and it will bounce.
Incidentally, you dont rest the fore end of any rifle on anything hard in the field.

 

[Smellydog]

No, have a proper look at one, both the barrel and the fore end tend to be skinny, rest it on a hard surface and it will bounce.
Incidentally, you dont rest the fore end of any rifle on anything hard in the field.

Yep, they are right, and that is why the wood is there, to protect the barrel.
And generally you are correct about resting the forend on something hard but when up the Alps.....
What our difference of opinion, I doubt it would jump as much as the op is experiencing.

 

[Dunwaters]

Yep, they are right, and that is why the wood is there, to protect the barrel.
And generally you are correct about resting the forend on something hard but when up the Alps.....
What our difference of opinion, I doubt it would jump as much as the op is experiencing.

It’ll jump a lot more than that, have a go yourself with just about any centre fire.
A hard rest also makes it difficult to keep a consistent resting point while shooting.

 

[Smellydog]

It’ll jump a lot more than that, have a go yourself with just about any centre fire.
A hard rest also makes it difficult to keep a consistent resting point while shooting.

Chap I knew had two full stocked sako's .
222&243. I'd wince but he thought nothing of resting the flimsy forend in a tree fork or a forked stick. Still took his deer.
I've seen images of fully stocked snipers in the great war with the forend rested on the ground or other barricade.
Oh, and I am fully experienced in shooting full bore rifles over many decades.
You are correct if one is desiring tiny groups. Not so sure for general hunting but no, I would never rest a bare barrel on anything.

 

[WildBoarHunter]

Here's a few pics,
Pic 1, the rifle
Pic 2, marks where the stock is touching the barrel
Pic 3, marks where the forend is touching the barrel
Pic 4, the forend, warp of the stock downward can clearly be seen from this pic
Pic 5, there's a slight round indentation on the bolt face, that had me worried about headspace (might just be normal wear?)...