Game dealer nightmare!

[Alantoo]

My course was with BASC so can't comment on anyone elses content but given some responses to this thread others 'may' be the same. I'm sure we'll find out soon enough!

Mine was with BDS.

Tellingly the the only answer I got wrong was regarding the ultimate responsibility for food hygiene! (individual operative, supervisor or company, or similar options)

Evidently an accurate exam!

Alan

 

[lister]

NO!!!
ANYONE WHO SELLS TO A AGHE !!!!!!!!!!
Why would a private Stalker be exempt Food Standards Hygiene and Traceability Regs??
MS

you are correct does this mean you need business insurance

 

[Monkey Spanker]

you are correct does this mean you need business insurance

That's just the start of it to be honest!
If you run it from home, then your home insurance may be invalidated as you haven't covered your business?
You also need to be registered as self-employed to receive income from sales as well as declaring income via tax self-assessment. This can also involve paying class 2 National Insurance contributions if you cannot claim a low earnings exemption certificate. If you have BASC insurance it will be invalidated as they only cover recreational stalking. Any income will invalidate this.
Is your head spinning yet?

MS

 

[timbrayford]

That's just the start of it to be honest!
If you run it from home, then your home insurance may be invalidated as you haven't covered your business?
You also need to be registered as self-employed to receive income from sales as well as declaring income via tax self-assessment. This can also involve paying class 2 National Insurance contributions if you cannot claim a low earnings exemption certificate. If you have BASC insurance it will be invalidated as they only cover recreational stalking. Any income will invalidate this.
Is your head spinning yet?

MS

I do not entirely agree that a recreational stalker selling a few carcases constitutes either self employment or a business.

In general terms running a business is done for profit, a hobby stalker merely off setting some of his expenses such as purchasing a rifle and stalking clothes, binoculars etc. plus travel, shooting lease etc is not a business, certainly not until a significant net profit is generated.

atb Tim

 

[PointBlank]

That's just the start of it to be honest!
If you run it from home, then your home insurance may be invalidated as you haven't covered your business?
You also need to be registered as self-employed to receive income from sales as well as declaring income via tax self-assessment. This can also involve paying class 2 National Insurance contributions if you cannot claim a low earnings exemption certificate. If you have BASC insurance it will be invalidated as they only cover recreational stalking. Any income will invalidate this.
Is your head spinning yet?

MS

BASC insurance does cover you if you are only selling the carcasses. As long as you are not charging for stalking or taking clients you are covered from what I could see.

 

[Monkey Spanker]

I do not entirely agree that a recreational stalker selling a few carcases constitutes either self employment or a business.

In general terms running a business is done for profit, a hobby stalker merely off setting some of his expenses such as purchasing a rifle and stalking clothes, binoculars etc. plus travel, shooting lease etc is not a business, certainly not until a significant net profit is generated.

atb Tim

You are right, but it is you that has to justify a BACS payment from a game dealer to the taxman! Do you have full records of income and expenditure which date back 5 years. The only way you can do this properly is to register as self-employed and declare the income. Thankfully my brother did when he went through a divorce and his ex wifes lawyer questioned sums of money paid into bank accounts for carcasses. The taxman can do the same but he will only concentrate on income which can be back-dated I believe. Unless you can do the same you may be vulnerable?
Remember that game dealers are required to keep food traceability records for several years which include carcass details and money paid out. They are very likely to receive tax inspection because of the way they work (ie, cash in hand at the door in some instances!). It only takes an inspector to notice that someone like myself has been paid for carcasses for them to check me in turn?
I know that most will spend more than they earn the same as yourself, but all that matters really is un-declared income! That will bite you on the ass for sure!
MS

 

[devon deer stalker]

I agree in part, if it is just for your own consumption thats fine, but as soon as you sell it you leave yourself open to the good old taxman.
Should the AGHE's get investigated/audited there is a paper trail all the way back to us, keep everything to off set your profit (if any) against your costs.
Cheers
Richard

I do not entirely agree that a recreational stalker selling a few carcases constitutes either self employment or a business.

In general terms running a business is done for profit, a hobby stalker merely off setting some of his expenses such as purchasing a rifle and stalking clothes, binoculars etc. plus travel, shooting lease etc is not a business, certainly not until a significant net profit is generated.

atb Tim

 

[Monkey Spanker]

BASC insurance does cover you if you are only selling the carcasses. As long as you are not charging for stalking or taking clients you are covered from what I could see.

They did look at changing it a while back but I don't believe they have yet?
I had some discussion with David on here after explaining why I had to leave them as they agreed that I was not insured for selling carcasses. We looked at a 3 tier solution wihich ranged from recreational non-earning up to professional guide. I've not heard that it has changed yet, but may be mistaken.
BDS have a limit of earning set at £5000 for their insurance policy.
You may wish to get that in writing as the amount you sell is substantial.
EDIT:
It has changed slightly and may cost you more, see 'selling game' here:
http://basc.org.uk/join-basc/basc-members-insurance/

MS

 

[timbrayford]

You are right, but it is you that has to justify a BACS payment from a game dealer to the taxman! Do you have full records of income and expenditure which date back 5 years. The only way you can do this properly is to register as self-employed and declare the income. Thankfully my brother did when he went through a divorce and his ex wifes lawyer questioned sums of money paid into bank accounts for carcasses. The taxman can do the same but he will only concentrate on income which can be back-dated I believe. Unless you can do the same you may be vulnerable?
Remember that game dealers are required to keep food traceability records for several years which include carcass details and money paid out. They are very likely to receive tax inspection because of the way they work (ie, cash in hand at the door in some instances!). It only takes an inspector to notice that someone like myself has been paid for carcasses for them to check me in turn?
I know that most will spend more than they earn the same as yourself, but all that matters really is un-declared income! That will bite you on the ass for sure!
MS

The situation is not entirely straightforward. e.g. I run a landscaping business and occasionally go stalking as a hobby. What HMRC will not permit is offsetting the profits of my business against my hobby, even if I sell some venison. It is as you describe wise to keep records, if only to prove that the expenses of your hobby are substantially greater than any payment received, i.e. a net loss of income.

atb Tim

 

[palmer_mike]

The situation is not entirely straightforward. e.g. I run a landscaping business and occasionally go stalking as a hobby. What HMRC will not permit is offsetting the profits of my business against my hobby, even if I sell some venison. It is as you describe wise to keep records, if only to prove that the expenses of your hobby are substantially greater than any payment received, i.e. a net loss of income.

atb Tim

Are you sure? I know people who do exactly as you describe. Although obviously it's described as a venison supply business rather than their hobby on the tax return, and why not?

 

[Monkey Spanker]

The situation is not entirely straightforward. e.g. I run a landscaping business and occasionally go stalking as a hobby. What HMRC will not permit is offsetting the profits of my business against my hobby, even if I sell some venison. It is as you describe wise to keep records, if only to prove that the expenses of your hobby are substantially greater than any payment received, i.e. a net loss of income.

atb Tim

If you are a self employed deer manager, then it is no longer viewed as a hobby! New business is permitted to run at a loss for several years. A loss in one part of your business can offset tax paid on another.
MS

 

[Alantoo]

As a self employed person I have always kept details of all expenditure on kit and training related to stalking. So far it has all been entered as drawings but highlighted in red so that as soon as I sell my first bit of venison and declare the income I can set the expenditure off against tax. My circumstance is complicated by being VAT Registerred as an artist/sole trader. I was hoping to be able to claim back on the stalking expenditure but not have to charge any VAT 'cos it's food. Unfortunately the accountant thinks it will be treated as a seperate business by the VATman so I can only offset against income tax The upside of keeping it separate is that I don't have to charge or pay vat on my income from beating.

Alan

 

[PointBlank]

It has changed slightly and may cost you more, see 'selling game' here:
http://basc.org.uk/join-basc/basc-members-insurance/

MS

Didn't see that thanks. Now filled out the declaration and even if it costs me a bit more i'm sure it should still be cheaper than full blown commercial insurance.

 

[timbrayford]

If you are a self employed deer manager, then it is no longer viewed as a hobby! New business is permitted to run at a loss for several years. A loss in one part of your business can offset tax paid on another.
MS

HMRC have been known to disagree and attempt to disallow the expenses, I know someone who got a £ 100,000 bill from them on account of this.

atb Tim

 

[PointBlank]

HMRC have been known to disagree and attempt to disallow the expenses, I know someone who got a £ 100,000 bill from them on account of this.

atb Tim

Whatever you do I can guarantee you will get in far worse trouble for not declaring it. I declare all mine and also declare all the expensive essential purchases that are related to stalking or the larder, I can't be much of a businessman though because I always seem to run at a loss...

 

[Scarlet]

Youve got a cheek moaning about being turned over on a verbal promise..

Ive still got all the emails regarding the unprofessional handling of trophy's from your Zambia hunt.

If anyman ever reneged on a promise it was you.

Ah he has form then.. I`m a firm believer of what go`s around come`s around..

 

[joed]

Wow, read this from start to finish, very informative. I am completing my DSC1 next weekend. I shall be bringing this up. I think all providers will be giving the same info, if they are all providing standardised exam questions and qualification.

 

[timbrayford]

Whatever you do I can guarantee you will get in far worse trouble for not declaring it. I declare all mine and also declare all the expensive essential purchases that are related to stalking or the larder, I can't be much of a businessman though because I always seem to run at a loss...

Under self assessment it is the taxpayers responsibility to make an accurate declaration, claiming disallowable expenses will incur penalties, interest and probably an expensive tax investigation. Businesses of course need to declare income but a recreational stalker attempting to purport that the cost of his loss making hobby is a legitimate expense to offset against profits elsewhere will be in deep trouble.

Incidentally for those who do have a loss making business, expect HMRC to ask how you support yourself and can afford to go stalking etc.

atb Tim

 

[PointBlank]

Under self assessment it is the taxpayers responsibility to make an accurate declaration, claiming disallowable expenses will incur penalties, interest and probably an expensive tax investigation. Businesses of course need to declare income but a recreational stalker attempting to purport that the cost of his loss making hobby is a legitimate expense to offset against profits elsewhere will be in deep trouble.

Incidentally for those who do have a loss making business, expect HMRC to ask how you support yourself and can afford to go stalking etc.

atb Tim

There is nothing wrong with claiming against any costs that are incurred in your venison supply business, same as any business. It is completely legitimate and obviously any business will run at a loss while it is becoming established. I have been through this with my accountant. As I said before what would be illegal is selling venison without declaring it.

 

[timbrayford]

There is nothing wrong with claiming against any costs that are incurred in your venison supply business, same as any business. It is completely legitimate and obviously any business will run at a loss while it is becoming established. I have been through this with my accountant. As I said before what would be illegal is selling venison without declaring it.

I think that we may be at cross purposes here. In the ordinary course of events a business would declare both income and expenses. That is not the matter that I am addressing.

It was suggested in an earlier post on this thread that a recreational stalker who defrays the cost of his hobby by selling some venison has to register as a business and self-employed. This is not necessarily the case as HMRC will only become interested once a net income occurs. If you are in a perpetual loss making situation with your stalking hobby HMRC will not allow you to offset this cost against a totally unconnected profitable business activity.

This has recently occurred on the Isle of Wight when an acquaintance attempted to offset a loss making small scale livestock enterprise, which HMRC deemed to be a "hobby", against a profitable retail activity. The outcome was an in depth HMRC investigation, penalties, interest and a large unexpected tax bill.

atb Tim