Genetic make up of Welsh Roe Deer

[8x57]

To my mind the majority of mid wales is amazing habitat for roe and it has surprised me how few I am seeing away from the forestry blocks. My experience in other parts of the U.K. is that they would be flourishing in the surrounding farm land.
As a lot of these forests reached maturity and have been started to be harvested /replanted there is a mixture of age class timber. A lot of natural regeneration as well seems to offer them all the habitat they need.
Taking this into consideration my conclusion was that combined with the high density of sheep, subsequent fencing and that as an expanding population with low numbers has had something to do with there choices. However I may be completely wrong in my thinking.
In early spring on one morning I saw 10 roe in young plantings over several blocks with nothing seen in the surrounding areas.

I see a lot of places in Wales which to me seem absolutely ideal areas for roe to thrive and that are identical to areas in South West England where roe abound, yet they remain devoid of roe or which are only rarely visited by the occasional roe.
Poaching and other pressures aside I've come to the simple conclusion that roe simply go where they fancy, and if they just don't like an area they don't stick around.

 

[Gameking]

To my knowledge Roe have spread across Wales and in recent years have reached the coast of Cardigan Bay.
Although numbers are low the expanding population seems to be increasing against the odds. Reports of sightings becoming
more frequent, and if you know what you are looking for the signs are there.
On watching recent threads on the how genetics, diet etc effect antler quality and body weight along with a gold medal buck being shot in Carmarthenshire , got me thinking.
Where have these deer spread from and therefore what genetic pool do they originate from?
I have my own thoughts but would be interested to hear other people’s hypothesis.

Can you please give more details or a link regarding the Gold Medal Roe shot in Carmarthenshire ?

 

[Covert]

CIC Roe Review 2023 England Wales
Scored 139.2

 

[gelert]

This may sound stupid but I wonder if the spread of roe, and other deer has something to do with the level of sheep we have in Wales.I think the sheep population of Wales is around 10million, making up around 1/3 of the whole UK population.

 

[VSS]

This may sound stupid but I wonder if the spread of roe, and other deer has something to do with the level of sheep we have in Wales.I think the sheep population of Wales is around 10million, making up around 1/3 of the whole UK population.

Indirectly, yes. We have some perfect habitat for roe, but those areas aren't sufficiently interconnected to provide corridors for migration. Open expanses of sheep pasture lack the necessary wildlife corridors that roe like to move through. We also don't have many railway lines. In other parts of the UK, railway embankments provide a means by which roe move into new areas.
Add into the mix the natural barriers to movement, and it's just not happening.
An interesting population modelling study was carried out by a PHD student not so long ago, which looked at all the factors such as annual recruitment, mortality, territory size, habitat availability, migration corridors, etc etc, to see how long it would take for roe to spread from existing known populations to new areas in Wales. If I remember correctly, his results showed that I'm going to have to wait about 40 years for deer to arrive in my area by natural means.
(At that point I gave up waiting, and bought my own herd of fallow )

 

[paul k]

To my mind the majority of mid wales is amazing habitat for roe and it has surprised me how few I am seeing away from the forestry blocks. My experience in other parts of the U.K. is that they would be flourishing in the surrounding farm land.
As a lot of these forests reached maturity and have been started to be harvested /replanted there is a mixture of age class timber. A lot of natural regeneration as well seems to offer them all the habitat they need.
Taking this into consideration my conclusion was that combined with the high density of sheep, subsequent fencing and that as an expanding population with low numbers has had something to do with there choices. However I may be completely wrong in my thinking.
In early spring on one morning I saw 10 roe in young plantings over several blocks with nothing seen in the surrounding areas.

Agreed, when I said monoculture I meant the mature plantations, obviously regenerating cleared areas are perfect for roe (and other species).

 

[paul k]

Indirectly, yes. We have some perfect habitat for roe, but those areas aren't sufficiently interconnected to provide corridors for migration. Open expanses of sheep pasture lack the necessary wildlife corridors that roe like to move through. We also don't have many railway lines. In other parts of the UK, railway embankments provide a means by which roe move into new areas.
Add into the mix the natural barriers to movement, and it's just not happening.
An interesting population modelling study was carried out by a PHD student not so long ago, which looked at all the factors such as annual recruitment, mortality, territory size, habitat availability, migration corridors, etc etc, to see how long it would take for roe to spread from existing known populations to new areas in Wales. If I remember correctly, his results showed that I'm going to have to wait about 40 years for deer to arrive in my area by natural means.
(At that point I gave up waiting, and bought my own herd of fallow )

Ivor Williams will sort it out for you!

 

[VSS]

Ivor Williams will sort it out for you!

Did you not read my last sentence?

 

[243varmint]

From the Marches we have seen a big expansion of roe numbers. Shooting either side of the border. I was of the understanding that the roe around the Marches were from released stock in Radnor and Mortimer forest areas.. muntjac have spread too.
We hardly saw roe 30 years ago now we have medal class deer.

Further west....no doubt a helping hand from Ifor Williams.....

 

[paul k]

From the Marches we have seen a big expansion of roe numbers. Shooting either side of the border. I was of the understanding that the roe around the Marches were from released stock in Radnor and Mortimer forest areas.. muntjac have spread too.
We hardly saw roe 30 years ago now we have medal class deer.

Further west....no doubt a helping hand from Ifor Williams.....

I think that you’ll find that Ifor Williams also had a hand in the Radnor and Mortimer Forest roe!

 

[paul k]

CIC Roe Review 2023 England Wales
Scored 139.2

Second best Welsh roe that I have a record of.

 

[Ratel]

Indirectly, yes. We have some perfect habitat for roe, but those areas aren't sufficiently interconnected to provide corridors for migration. Open expanses of sheep pasture lack the necessary wildlife corridors that roe like to move through. We also don't have many railway lines. In other parts of the UK, railway embankments provide a means by which roe move into new areas.
Add into the mix the natural barriers to movement, and it's just not happening.
An interesting population modelling study was carried out by a PHD student not so long ago, which looked at all the factors such as annual recruitment, mortality, territory size, habitat availability, migration corridors, etc etc, to see how long it would take for roe to spread from existing known populations to new areas in Wales. If I remember correctly, his results showed that I'm going to have to wait about 40 years for deer to arrive in my area by natural means.
(At that point I gave up waiting, and bought my own herd of fallow )

Interesting Tim, but you do see plenty of Roe on open hill ground (where there are sheep) in Scotland, and good stalking they make. Roe will move where they fancy and only they know that.
It's quite interesting that the Roe from Thetford have crossed and indeed settled in the Fens which one would think somewhat inhospitable to them. They have crossed big rivers and treeless landscapes and are spreading West rapidly. We are now starting to see a few more and they have.joined up with the Northants/Warwks.lot now.

 

[VSS]

Interesting Tim, but you do see plenty of Roe on open hill ground (where there are sheep) in Scotland, and good stalking they make. Roe will move where they fancy and only they know that.
It's quite interesting that the Roe from Thetford have crossed and indeed settled in the Fens which one would think somewhat inhospitable to them. They have crossed big rivers and treeless landscapes and are spreading West rapidly. We are now starting to see a few more and they have.joined up with the Northants/Warwks.lot now.

Sheep stocking densities on hill ground in Scotland appear to be much lower than here, and there's a lot more vegetation on the Scottish hills in the form of tussock grass and so on. Also they have wider field margins and wider roadside margins, which provide good cover and corridors. Here you'll see the land grazed down almost bare by sheep, and right up to the roadside.
Where I am is perfect roe habitat, but they'd have to cross some pretty bleak places to get here.

 

[Ratel]

Sheep stocking densities on hill ground in Scotland appear to be much lower than here, and there's a lot more vegetation on the Scottish hills in the form of tussock grass and so on. Also they have wider field margins and wider roadside margins, which provide good cover and corridors. Here you'll see the land grazed down almost bare by sheep, and right up to the roadside.
Where I am is perfect roe habitat, but they'd have to cross some pretty bleak places to get here.

Heather hills and little grass , very few margins, where I was.
But hey they'll be with you in less time than you think. Youngsters get pushed onwards and outwards. Introduced well South of B'Ham and now all around and in it. Introduced West Yorks now joining up with the Brummies and web footed Fenlanders together with them from down Sowf and the Shropshire introductions. If I'm still above ground in ten years I'll pm you and ask.

 

[Cyffylog]

A Carmarthenshire Roebuck I found recently, road traffic casualty unfortunately. The second one I've found in the last 2 years.

 

[jimplayford]

Roe are common in and around Cheshire I see them most day s but it's park land and around dams. But there here. And growing numbers as you think with no cull

 

[muntjacmad]

I live on a farm in mid wales and roe seem to have exploded of late. Lovely to see if people will just give them a chance. I saw three on my lane on the way to work this morning. Also have a few fallow coming quietly and muntjac on some permissions knighton way.

atb

 

[Strike]

To my personal knowledge, there are and have been Roe in Llaneglwys forest north of Brecon since at least the late seventies and there is a good population around Golden Grove nr. Llandeilo they have also been there since the seventies, at least. The latter population I believe / understand, are from a local deer park.
Now, its not uncommon for me to see Roe on the ground I shoot around Brecon, however they are in small numbers.
There are a good number of Roe in the Lower and Upper Chapel areas most probably from the Llaneglwys forest.
When I've looked at deer population map of Wales, I've always thought the population has been understated.
There are also a few Fallow in the area. I see 1 or 2 a year.
The Red Deer population in my area are really confined to a relatively small area of the Beacons. The numbers have been greatly reduced over recent years. I say this as I shoot on several farms around the Heol Senni area and now it's rare for me to see them. A large forestry block has also been clear felled, this was really the centre of the population I was regularly sighting.
From September to lambing time in the spring I am out regularly at least 4 nights a week foxing, it is the use of thermal spotters and rifle sights that have really been a game changer in understanding the true spread and numbers of deer in my part of the world.

 

[paul k]

To my personal knowledge, there are and have been Roe in Llaneglwys forest north of Brecon since at least the late seventies and there is a good population around Golden Grove nr. Llandeilo they have also been there since the seventies, at least. The latter population I believe / understand, are from a local deer park.
Now, its not uncommon for me to see Roe on the ground I shoot around Brecon, however they are in small numbers.
There are a good number of Roe in the Lower and Upper Chapel areas most probably from the Llaneglwys forest.
When I've looked at deer population map of Wales, I've always thought the population has been understated.
There are also a few Fallow in the area. I see 1 or 2 a year.
The Red Deer population in my area are really confined to a relatively small area of the Beacons. The numbers have been greatly reduced over recent years. I say this as I shoot on several farms around the Heol Senni area and now it's rare for me to see them. A large forestry block has also been clear felled, this was really the centre of the population I was regularly sighting.
From September to lambing time in the spring I am out regularly at least 4 nights a week foxing, it is the use of thermal spotters and rifle sights that have really been a game changer in understanding the true spread and numbers of deer in my part of the world.

Are you sure about the Golden Grove deer as there (or certainly was) is a significant fallow population in the area, I got my first FAC based on having fallow on ground near Llanarthney and very few deer parks would have roe as they’re not really a herd species. You may well be right about the reds, the numbers culled by NRW in SW Wales have reduced in recent years too. The NRW should not be aggressively culling reds or roe as they have a duty to promote native species but the latest roe cull figures tell a different story and support the theories on expansion.

In the year 2023/24 the number of red deer taken to NRW larders was SE Wales 0 (12 in the last eleven years); SW Wales 2 (63); Mid Wales 10 (95) and NW/NE Wales 0 (0). The SE Wales red deer move between England and Wales and on the English side there’s a stated policy for a minimum cull of these reds as there’s only a relatively small number of them.

The number of roe taken to NRW larders was SE Wales 61 (355); SW Wales 25 (110); Mid Wales 158 (1691); and NW/NE Wales 0 (2) There is an obviously reasonably substantial population of roe in SE Wales, principally Monmouthshire, if 61 were culled on NRW ground alone in the past year. There have been four Welsh gold medals and four silver medals since 2016, all but one from Monmouth, a further twelve medals were taken since 2021 from parts of Herefordshire assumed to be adjacent to the Welsh border.

The number of muntjac taken to NRW larders was SE Wales 30 (88); SW Wales 0 (0); Mid Wales 15 (58); and NW/NE Wales 0 (0) Muntjac were first culled in Wales in 2016/17 and 2023/24 saw the largest muntjac cull in both SE and Mid Wales.

The number of fallow taken to NRW larders was SE Wales 186 (1943); SW Wales 233 (2792); Mid Wales 0 (69); and NW/NE Wales 154 (1247)

Just 6 boar were culled since 2012, all in SE Wales. There wasn’t a noticeable drop in the deer cull in the Covid years.

 

[Strike]

I saw both Fallow and Roe on ground around Golden Grove. In winter I would see one or two mall groups of half a dozen or so Roe Does and kids alongside the A40 on my way west.
As far as Boar taken in Wales. I have this year taken, one Wild Boar and one Feral Pig, the latter was I believe a Tamworth cross. These were taken approximately 7 miles from Brecon. A local farmer asked me to shoot them as they were bullying pregnant Ewes off their feed troughs. I got a variation on my FAC for a .308 on the back of the first Boar. The firearms officer said It was the first time Wild Boar had been put on a FAC in Dyfed Powys.
I have heard of other Boar in the area however I have not seen them.