Genetic make up of Welsh Roe Deer

[Craigsaun]

I cover my fair share of ground, in and around Llandeilo and have done for the past 14years . There is a good healthy population of fallow if you know where to look, but I’m afraid to say, I have never come across Roe

 

[Rusty Gate]

While I've regularly travelled through Wales for far too many years, mostly diagonally south to north, as a borderer I've never really given much thought to deer in west Wales. I knew for instance that roe were common in the forests of Radnorshire and are I understand (possibly wrongly) that they are the most common species in the county, but I had no idea that they may have spread as far as Cardigan bay. Do you think that the present population in Carmarthenshire originated from there?
I would certainly be eager to hear more about your theory of the origins of roe in Carmarthenshire.

There's little doubt that the roe population in Monmouthshire and southern Breconshire (Powys) has expanded and extended in very recent times. I always thought that these were from the remains of a miniscule resident population plus an influx from Herefordshire and Gloucestershire.

Incidentally my daughter nearly hit a deer south or Builth Wells near Erwood last week. She was not certain of the species but thinks it may have been a fallow? Does anyone know if there are fallow in that area.

A colleague has permission on three farms & fallow was mentioned

 

[Strike]

I have to admit I have not travelled that way for a number of years. Perhaps I should have said there seemed to be a good population of Roe in that area. In the late 70s and early eighties. I used to see Roe on ground to the north of the A40 heading west in winter, so on the right hand side. before the left turn for Golden Grove. The fields were quite rough grazing with plenty of scrub, and mature hedges. I used to travel that way early mornings.

 

[paul k]

I saw both Fallow and Roe on ground around Golden Grove. In winter I would see one or two mall groups of half a dozen or so Roe Does and kids alongside the A40 on my way west.
As far as Boar taken in Wales. I have this year taken, one Wild Boar and one Feral Pig, the latter was I believe a Tamworth cross. These were taken approximately 7 miles from Brecon. A local farmer asked me to shoot them as they were bullying pregnant Ewes off their feed troughs. I got a variation on my FAC for a .308 on the back of the first Boar. The firearms officer said It was the first time Wild Boar had been put on a FAC in Dyfed Powys.
I have heard of other Boar in the area however I have not seen them.

Fair point, roe do gather in family groups in winter but they’re not really a herd animal nor a species kept in deer parks whereas of course fallow are classic herd deer suited to deer parks. At the time I got my FAC for the group near Llanarthney (1980) there were probably no roe in SW Wales, probably not in Wales at all other than just possibly in the Mortimer Forest area.

Where do you think the boar came from? It’s unlikely that a boar got there from the Wye Valley, the fact that you also had a Tamworth cross suggests a boar farm nearby as domestic pigs are often crossed in to increase litter size and Tamworth are a primitive breed quite close to boar.

 

[Strike]

Fair point, roe do gather in family groups in winter but they’re not really a herd animal nor a species kept in deer parks whereas of course fallow are classic herd deer suited to deer parks. At the time I got my FAC for the group near Llanarthney (1980) there were probably no roe in SW Wales, probably not in Wales at all other than just possibly in the Mortimer Forest area.

Where do you think the boar came from? It’s unlikely that a boar got there from the Wye Valley, the fact that you also had a Tamworth cross suggests a boar farm nearby as domestic pigs are often crossed in to increase litter size and Tamworth are a primitive breed quite close to boar.

Roe deer were definitely present in Llaneglwys Forest north of Brecon, in the very late seventies.
In those days we used to have very large gatherings for organised fox shoots. It was not unheard of for Roe to bolt across the tracks. I don't know where they came from, the nearest population of Roe that I was aware of at that time were at Titley nr. Kington.
Now deer sightings are reported regularly in this area.
As for the Boar, I don't know where it came from. I actually thought they may have been dumped or deliberately released. I guessed they were 2yrs old or so. The Tamworth X was A Sow, the Boar was a Boar. I was surprised the Sow was not pregnant as they had been running together for quite a while before I finally caught up with them. There were sightings of Very young Boar humbugs filmed and posted on Facebook. If you Google Boar in the Brecon Beacons it will come up.
My daughters father in law was confronted by a large Boar while walking their dog nr. Llandeilo. There were certainly sightings of Boar nr. Talgarth, It may well be these that turned up on my permission. I believe there is a very sparce population of Boar east of Brecon. Moving further West all the time.
Abergavenny is less than twenty miles from my permission, and there are Boar sightings regularly in that area.
I hope more of everything turns up.

 

[paul k]

Mortimer Forest is roughly 40miles from Llaneglwys Forest and Titley is about 20 miles away on a fairly direct route so it’s not impossible that the deer that you saw on your fox shoots originated from there. However, the more I research the matter the more I think that there were releases of roe deer in various areas in Wales. I have seen a photograph of a roe taken in a garden in Bangor, this is at least 50 miles from the nearest definite roe population in the Coed y Brenin but the route would be across Snowdonia and the roe population is pretty thin in Coed y Brenin and it’s hard to see young displaced bucks having to travel very far for a territory and I’m pretty sure that the Bangor roe was a doe. So your Llaneglwys deer could have realistically got there from Mortimer ( via Titley) or alternatively with help.

As far as the boar are concerned, the original Forest of Dean boar were escapees from a boar farm on the SW side of the forest, possibly in the 1987 hurricane, but they did not spread very far and were not in the main Forest of Dean until around the early 2000s. About the same time there was a deliberate release on the opposite side of the forest and these spread far more rapidly culminating in the two populations meeting up and the total pushing 2,000 the pressure from which caused a rapid geographical spread down the Wye Valley and over into Wales. I was hearing reports that they may have reached the Usk valley and of course Abergavenny is in that area. However, the Forestry Commission decided that they needed to get on top of the boar with a target of getting the population down to around 400. I’m not sure that they have achieved this but boar are certainly harder to find in the main forest, I’m not aware of a retraction in range but the pressure on further expansion has eased. This is evidenced by the very low numbers of boar shot by the NRW on the Welsh side in the last 10 years. So, any boar in Wales west of Monmouthshire are more likely to be escapees or deliberate releases than resulting from natural expansion of range from established other populations although it’s not impossible.