got stopped last night/legality of copies of your cert's

[EMcC]

If you are unlucky enough to have one of the less efficient issuing forces, it would seem quite sensible to carry a copy, rather than risk having to wait weeks for a re-issue!

We are lucky in Wiltshire our Firearms department are very efficient and turn paperwork round in a very quick time indeed.

 

[Apache]

An interesting thing is how much the police don't seem to care if you lose your certs. My wife lost hers when we moved house and rang them up, all she had to do was send a cheque and they re-issued them. No hassle, no fuss. All they said was if they turn up return them.

I'd rather have my certs in the car and lose or spoil them, than safely in my desk draw as I have to go tomorrow and get my guns back.

 

[bewsher500]

do the FAC carriers also keep their V5, MOT, Insurance and Driving license in the car?

 

[bobjs]

I seem to have upset a few people with this post.

I am sorry for that but when you read through it, it seems there is more to it than we think.

so many differing views and points of view that i am glad to read about.

i have never ever carried my certs with me since i misplaced mine a long time back, and i also never carry my car documents with me in the car, they all live in covers at home in a documents cabinet so that we all know where they are.

so once again apologies to some, and thanks to others for their input.

bob.

 

[Wiltshire Lad]

We are lucky in Wiltshire our Firearms department are very efficient and turn paperwork round in a very quick time indeed.

Have you done it recently? My last variation took two months, although that included the August holiday season.

 

[Mick Miller]

So just to add my thruppence worth, the same thing happened to me. I always followed the bad advice that you neither need to carry your cert. or a copy of the cert. Wrong.

After my rifles were seized and held in the back of the police car I had a 1 hour round trip to go home, get my cert out of the safe place and return to produce. All was well and we went on our way. I remained ticked off about it though so rang the head of firearms licensing the next day and we had a long chat about the legalities of not carrying your cert. and what would happen if you lost it.

To cut a long story short, you should always have your licence with you at all times that you carry either a shotgun or rifle as a check on the firearms database, even if this is possible and for many officers it is not a readily available resource, will only reveal if you hold a current FAC/ SGC. What it will not include is any information relating to serial numbers or calibres of rifles in your posession. So, to save time just carry your cert. What's the problem with that? Put it in a drybag if you're worried about losing it but I have been told that losing a cert is no problem, unless your losing it on a regular basis, several times a year, in which case it may be questionable whether you should really be trusted to own a firearm if you cannot keep a small bit of folded paper safe.

THe fact is, there could be any number of operational factors in play when you get stopped, things joe public wouldn't be aware of, there could have been reports of illegal poaching, stolen firearms any number of reasons why that officer would need to put your name and your face to the rifle currently in your posession, so the easiest, most efficient way to resolve that question for both parties is to simply carry it with you. It's really no big deal.

 

[Hornet 6]

I have refrained from posting till now, mainly because I fail to see why you should not carry your certificate.
Just why is it so difficult to do this, the fear of losing it is not really a good excuse is it.
Your supposed to be responsible enough to carry the riffle and ammo without losing them, why is a cert any more difficult to keep track of ?

Neil.

 

[Mick Miller]

Sorry, I forgot to add this. Why bother with a copy, and risk having to produce the real thing. Just carry the real thing and everything, all bases, are covered.

 

[EMcC]

Have you done it recently? My last variation took two months, although that included the August holiday season.

I had my last variation and general tidy up of my FC Monday 17th March.
It took all of five minutes to get that sorted.

 

[The tramp]

do the FAC carriers also keep their V5, MOT, Insurance and Driving license in the car?

No. Because you don't have your car taken until you produce, where the law requires you to do so within 7 days, unlike firearms tickets where they should be available on demand.

Pete

 

[The tramp]

Have you done it recently? My last variation took two months, although that included the August holiday season.

Mine took 15 mins

 

[stalker.308]

now at this point i thought i was going to be told something like "this is not allowed" and i could have been in a tad hot water, but nothing was said.

bob.

Bob
Interesting to read the thread, personally I always take my certificates out and leave them in the car (car is never that far away), saves any hassle and they stay clean/safe in my rifle bag. What I don't get is why if you thought it was illegal or not allowed why you would even bother to take a copy of your fac and then produce it???

 

[bobjs]

Bob
Interesting to read the thread, personally I always take my certificates out and leave them in the car (car is never that far away), saves any hassle and they stay clean/safe in my rifle bag. What I don't get is why if you thought it was illegal or not allowed why you would even bother to take a copy of your fac and then produce it???

I think from the general consensus and the law that i will have mine with me from now on, again this thread has shown that there is a lot of people that think like wise, and a bet there are a fare few more who have not posted think the same.

regardless wether i have kicked a hornet's nest or not, a few more people know what is required etc.

thanks to all for their input.

bob.

 

[bobjs]

ps: the second police officer was polite and courteous at all times and explained that once the pnc check was done and all was found to be legal and above board (despite me and steve not being in possession of out fac's) we were ok to carry on doing what we had come out to do.

bob.

 

[Whitebeard]

ps: the second police officer was polite and courteous at all times and explained that once the pnc check was done and all was found to be legal and above board (despite me and steve not being in possession of out fac's) we were ok to carry on doing what we had come out to do.

bob.

The common sense way for things to proceed Bob, the problem with this thread and the recent other one that covered the same subject, are those shooters who keep on bleating out, "the law says i dont need to", "the law says i dont need too"!!
Yes, the law says you dont need to but it has been clearly explained why it is beneficial to do so, i get the impression that there are plenty on here who seem to be too dense to absorb this and cant seem to fathom out why carrying your FAC when out shooting is good practice!

Ian.

 

[bewsher500]

No. Because you don't have your car taken until you produce, where the law requires you to do so within 7 days, unlike firearms tickets where they should be available on demand.

Pete

Actually that is the issue.
no-where does it say "on demand" or say you must have it (FAC) on your person.

and as a word of warning you CAN very easily have your car taken away if you can not produce paperwork
the Police, Insurance and DVLA databases are notoriously crap!

I have experienced this first hand
By some freak occurrence I had my current tax disc cancelled/refunded in error and my insurance renewal wasn't processed as requested.
cue 9m of driving with tax or insurance!!

only luck and a certain amount of threatening legal action stopped me from having my car whisked away and crushed!

no paperwork and no database according to your PNC and you are screwed

 

[teabag_46]

Require production of Certificates
23.9. Section 48 of the 1968 Act provides that a constable may demand from any person believed to be in possession of a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of the 1968 Act applies, or of a shotgun the production of their firearm certificate, or, in the case of a shotgun, their shotgun certificate.
23.10. The insertion of 48(1A) by SI 1992/2823 provides that when a constable demands the production of his firearm or shotgun certificate, if he believes the person in question is in possession of a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, and the person in question fails:
(a) to produce a firearm certificate or, as the case may be, a shotgun certificate;
(b) to show that he is a person who, by reason of his place of residence or any other circumstances, is not entitled to be issued with a document identifying that firearm under any of the provisions which in the other member States correspond to the provisions of this Act for the issue of European firearms passes; or
187
Guide on Firearms Licensing Law
(c)
to show that he is in possession of the firearm exclusively in connection with the
carrying on of activities in respect of which, he or the person on whose behalf he
has possession of the firearm, is recognised, for the purposes of the law of another
Member State relating to firearms, as a collector of firearms or a body concerned in
the cultural or historical aspects of weapons, the constable may demand from that
person the production of a document which has been issued to that person in another
Member State under any such corresponding provisions, identifies that firearm as a
firearm to which it relates and is for the time being valid.
23.11.
Section 48(2) of the 1968 Act provides a constable the power to seize weapons and
ammunition in cases of non-compliance, the constable may also require the person to
immediately declare his full name and address

I think that we have already been through all this on the other thread Bewsher!

Require/demand - semantics, it amounts to the same thing; nowhere above does it mention that you can 'produce' at a later date, as you 'normally' can with vehicle documents!

Actually, 'demand' is mentioned more than once, in the quoted text!

 

[243 fallow]

Bob,

What are you going on about, you were out lamping for foxes with rifles and got checked out by the Police, big deal. The fact that you know more about firearms law than the officers is not surprising, you have an interest in rifles and arm yourself with knowledge about them and the law surrounding them. Those officers also have to have knowledge of all aspects of the law, not just firearms, so their knowledge on all subjects will not be all encompassing and exhaustive. However it does not need to be, all they need to know is that you need a certificate to have your rifles and permission to be where you are. Now you are required to furnish this proof and if you can't they are in their rights to seize the rifles, and you if necessary until the matter is sorted.

Imagine if you had seen lights in the middle of the night and thought "POACHERS" phoned it in and nothing happened, you would then be on here moaning that the Police did nothing, can't win can they. I would suggest that if you do not wish to carry your certificate for fear of losing it then take a photocopy, and if stopped explain your reason for it being a copy, be polite and I am sure that in most instances the issue can be resolved quickly and easily.

However if you start in with smart arse comments and a cocky attitude, be prepared for a trip to the station. Which will mean an instance of a firearms related enquiry being recorded and another shooting related incident in the debit column of statistics. The Police are not there to catch you out they are doing a job, and contrary to popular belief all participants in gun crime do not wear balaclavas, have scarred features and drive fast getaway cars just the same as all burglars don't wear striped jerseys and masks.

John

Well said JAYB, trying to be smart with the fuzz isnt a wise move, lot easier to cooperate and get along with them, not sure what Bob means by one nil blah blah then two nil ect. Police have a tough enough job !

 

[trouble]

Just keep your ticket, in your gun slip/bag. It's going to stay clean/dry (I'd hope) and it's not going to be far from you is it ?
Problem (for some) averted.

Pete

I would need to carry it every day , it would soon fall to bits . I think its time certificates were like the new driving license , credit card format with a paper part at home

 

[perdix]

I would need to carry it every day , it would soon fall to bits . I think its time certificates were like the new driving license , credit card format with a paper part at home

I was in the same boat and never carried mine even in my vehicle as I often left it for some time and walked a lot of my beat.I would now as a recreational shooter .However,it's not really an easy option for those that use firearms daily in all weathers and conditions