Government responds to 2023 firearms licensing consultation

[Heym SR20]

Just from a simple logistics perspective, surely a single certificate would surfice.

3 categories, or 2 just in Englandshire.

1) Airweapons - ie sub 12 ft lb

2) shotguns - as per current legal definition

3) Section 1 Firearms.

Normal background checks, references etc. 1 and 2 are granted. No limits on number of guns in these categories

Then showing good reason 3) is granted for rifles. I would suggest a simple number could be held, with more granted as required / requested. Small Bore ie rimfire, centrefire and deer legal centrefire.

We already have driving licences with multiple categories with different levels. You get a basic license on driving test. Additional qualifications all you tow trailers, or drive an HGV etc.

 

[Pete_Cambs]

Just from a simple logistics perspective, surely a single certificate would surfice.

3 categories, or 2 just in Englandshire.

1) Airweapons - ie sub 12 ft lb

2) shotguns - as per current legal definition

3) Section 1 Firearms.

Normal background checks, references etc. 1 and 2 are granted. No limits on number of guns in these categories

Then showing good reason 3) is granted for rifles. I would suggest a simple number could be held, with more granted as required / requested. Small Bore ie rimfire, centrefire and deer legal centrefire.

We already have driving licences with multiple categories with different levels. You get a basic license on driving test. Additional qualifications all you tow trailers, or drive an HGV etc.

But you’re applying a level of common sense to this with a view of still making shooting and gun ownership accessible for trusted people….. any changes the government bring in will be more aligned to a desire to ban guns all together and to lash out at rural communities which is where the majority of gun ownership.

Like I’ve said a ban costs to much in compensation so the next best alternative for them is to make it so difficult and expensive to own a gun and partake in shooting sports that the majority give up.
I highly suspect we’ll end up in a situation where all forms of shooting are purely a sport for the rich with the middle and working classes pushed out.

 

[timbrayford]

This may work for rifles but makes no real sense for clay shooting IMO. I’ve tried being a member of 2 different clay clubs in order to get reduced price on clays and found it boring after a while and never saw the return on my membership due to this. The reality is I regularly shoot between 4 or 5 different grounds within an hour of me and routinely visit other grounds further away. I suppose the better alternative if they went down this route would to be a member of the CPSA but not everyone is interested in competitive clay shooting.

I think the real problem here if they go the S1 is for those already with shotguns they will see the value of what they own greatly diminished, cost of cartridges will become unreasonably high if restrictions are put on how many you can hold and where they can be stored, cost of clays themselves will go up due to the reduced volume of shooters and the death of the have a go / corporate days many clubs run.

As I’ve said it does little to nothing in real terms for public safety and still doesn’t work if FLDs and the police don’t follow the set out process and do their jobs properly which is often the case with most of the incidents with legally held firearms.

The advantage of a club membership and safety test is that it would weed out the misfits, weirdos and those with bugger all muzzle awareness etc. Membership of a shooting organisation and a cosy few minutes chat at home with the FEO wouldn't within this context be a lot of use. We are where we are in terms of more restrictive firearms control, post Hungerford and beyond because the FLDs have not been able to spot the bad guys, whereas gun clubs have, e.g. Thomas Hamilton etc.

 

[25 Sharps]

As someone who spent a great deal of time volunteering with a youth clay shooting club, it makes me wonder how those type of organisations will be able to survive. Will make taster days and bringing in new shooters incredibly expensive and difficult.
Already hard enough with rifle clubs...

Why is it hard for rifle clubs?

 

[Pete_Cambs]

The advantage of a club membership and safety test is that it would weed out the misfits, weirdos and those with bugger all muzzle awareness etc. Membership of a shooting organisation and a cosy few minutes chat at home with the FEO wouldn't within this context be a lot of use. We are where we are in terms of more restrictive firearms control, post Hungerford and beyond because the FLDs have not been able to spot the bad guys, whereas gun clubs have, e.g. Thomas Hamilton etc.

sorry but I disagree, clay shooting grounds that offer membership are far far different to CF and rimfire clubs..... no one at either club I have been a member of would know anything about me really so you would fundamentally have to change the way clay grounds operate and even then the sheer size of a sporting lay out compared to a rifle ranges firing points means it would be impractical to watch each and every individual at each and every stand..... And then how does it work for live quarry shooting yes it's fairly easy to spot a b3llend on a driven day but far less so if you're roost shooting..... And then you have the issue of how do you actually become a member of a game / hunting shoot? Does everything have to become syndicated which would mean a lot of people would never get the chance to even try a day?

 

[Smellydog]

Indeed
Try it
Might stop you moaning ?

I have. I have tried it and it is inferior.
So can I moan?

 

[jall55]

I have. I have tried it and it is inferior.
So can I moan?

You have tried a bit Smelly - and like most of us you love a moan so feel free !

We managed a 4:1 ratio this year with steel - the same a last with lead - i think im even going to keep using steel now even for pigeon and crows tbh

 

[Smellydog]

You have tried a bit Smelly - and like most of us you love a moan so feel free !

We managed a 4:1 ratio this year with steel - the same a last with lead - i think im even going to keep using steel now even for pigeon and crows tbh

Hmmm. One bird in four. I'm concerned how many were pricked.
I know I was very uncomfortable for how many birds I wounded in the as you put it, the "bit" of testing I've done.
If I needed four shots for one bird I'd be changing the gun or cartridges.
Or get closer.

 

[25 Sharps]

sorry but I disagree, clay shooting grounds that offer membership are far far different to CF and rimfire clubs..... no one at either club I have been a member of would know anything about me really so you would fundamentally have to change the way clay grounds operate and even then the sheer size of a sporting lay out compared to a rifle ranges firing points means it would be impractical to watch each and every individual at each and every stand..... And then how does it work for live quarry shooting yes it's fairly easy to spot a b3llend on a driven day but far less so if you're roost shooting..... And then you have the issue of how do you actually become a member of a game / hunting shoot? Does everything have to become syndicated which would mean a lot of people would never get the chance to even try a day?

You don’t have to be a member of a syndicate or hunting group to justify good reason for a rifle, having your own permission, or even proof of invitation paid or unpaid is enough.

Why would that be different for a shotgun?

 

[Pete_Cambs]

You don’t have to be a member of a syndicate or hunting group to justify good reason for a rifle, having your own permission, or even proof of invitation paid or unpaid is enough.

Why would that be different for a shotgun?

it shouldn't but the point I was responding to was a suggestion that a membership shows seriousness as opposed to just joining a body (like BASC, BDS, CPSA etc) and then having a chat with your FEO about it..... the point I was making is its impossible to be a "member" when it comes to participating fields sports more often than now and even at clay grout where you could be a member it has less oversight than a rifle club would.

 

[25 Sharps]

it shouldn't but the point I was responding to was a suggestion that a membership shows seriousness as opposed to just joining a body (like BASC, BDS, CPSA etc) and then having a chat with your FEO about it..... the point I was making is its impossible to be a "member" when it comes to participating fields sports more often than now and even at clay grout where you could be a member it has less oversight than a rifle club would.

Fair enough.

But as stated, for quarry shooting, you wouldn’t (under current sect. 1 justification) need to be a member of anything.

I don’t like the idea, like yourself I have multiple shotguns and some of these are just part of the collection, having to justify them all would be a pain but I do enough shooting clays/vermin/pigeons/the odd walked up and driven day that I probably could pretty easily.

 

[Pete_Cambs]

Fair enough.

But as stated, for quarry shooting, you wouldn’t (under current sect. 1 justification) need to be a member of anything.

I don’t like the idea, like yourself I have multiple shotguns and some of these are just part of the collection, having to justify them all would be a pain but I do enough shooting clays/vermin/pigeons/the odd walked up and driven day that I probably could pretty easily.

I probably could justify mine but I am going to consolidate a few anyway such as the pump and the semi will become just a nicer semi that covers rough shooting, wild fowling and pigeons.

 

[25 Sharps]

I probably could justify mine but I am going to consolidate a few anyway such as the pump and the semi will become just a nicer semi that covers rough shooting, wild fowling and pigeons.

I have a few .410s that are now basically worthless, a full choked Winchester pump the same and a non steel proofed hush power 20 bore.

Of my 9 section 2 shotguns, only one is steel proof, along with my sec 1 semi.

So all bar 2 will be essentially worthless soon!

 

[charlie222]

I can't help thinking our organizations are a bit too happy to engage the points raised in the consultation, rather than than control the narrative. From the ONS, between 2010 and 2021 handguns accounted for 40% of all firearms offenses, followed by imitation firearms 25% and unidentified firearms 15%. Rifles accounted for 1% and shotguns 10%.
I couldn't find any info on whether the firearms were legally held or not, which is frankly ridiculous.
The hand guns must all be unlicensed, the imitations aren't licensed and the unknown can't be licensed or they'd know what they were. My point is 80% of gun crime cannot in anyway be linked to legal gun ownership, and I suspect the shotguns and rifles in the majority of cases would also be illegally held.
There simply is no credible argument against legal gun ownership, any argument presented by the government is easily shown to be a waste of tax payers money.
I would like this to be the position taken by our organizations.

 

[jall55]

Hmmm. One bird in four. I'm concerned how many were pricked.
I know I was very uncomfortable for how many birds I wounded in the as you put it, the "bit" of testing I've done.
If I needed four shots for one bird I'd be changing the gun or cartridges.
Or get closer.

The ratio is sensible in my opinion for driven birds
Most driven shoots also have plenty of pickers up and i sweep up any the next day too - so maybe our wounded are found quicker and despatched swifter than yours

 

[Elshad]

Just from a simple logistics perspective, surely a single certificate would surfice.

3 categories, or 2 just in Englandshire.

1) Airweapons - ie sub 12 ft lb

2) shotguns - as per current legal definition

3) Section 1 Firearms.

Normal background checks, references etc. 1 and 2 are granted. No limits on number of guns in these categories

Then showing good reason 3) is granted for rifles. I would suggest a simple number could be held, with more granted as required / requested. Small Bore ie rimfire, centrefire and deer legal centrefire.

We already have driving licences with multiple categories with different levels. You get a basic license on driving test. Additional qualifications all you tow trailers, or drive an HGV etc.

Excellent proposal. This would also get rid of the current grey area around section 1 shotguns and LBPs where they cannot be loaned or owned by clubs.

 

[timbrayford]

sorry but I disagree, clay shooting grounds that offer membership are far far different to CF and rimfire clubs..... no one at either club I have been a member of would know anything about me really so you would fundamentally have to change the way clay grounds operate and even then the sheer size of a sporting lay out compared to a rifle ranges firing points means it would be impractical to watch each and every individual at each and every stand..... And then how does it work for live quarry shooting yes it's fairly easy to spot a b3llend on a driven day but far less so if you're roost shooting..... And then you have the issue of how do you actually become a member of a game / hunting shoot? Does everything have to become syndicated which would mean a lot of people would never get the chance to even try a day?

We must agree to differ

 

[Smellydog]

The ratio is sensible in my opinion for driven birds
Most driven shoots also have plenty of pickers up and i sweep up any the next day too - so maybe our wounded are found quicker and despatched swifter than yours

And here I was expecting to kill them in the air.. What a fool I've been.
The antis will love latching onto the increased number of wounded birds.

 

[VSS]

And here I was expecting to kill them in the air.. What a fool I've been.
The antis will love latching onto the increased number of wounded birds.

Trying to kill them in the air is a fools game.
Just you wait until they're sitting on the ground or perched in the trees and you'll find your cartridge:kill ratio is massively improved, regardless of what material the projectile is made from.

 

[JTO]

The ratio is sensible in my opinion for driven birds
Most driven shoots also have plenty of pickers up and i sweep up any the next day too - so maybe our wounded are found quicker and despatched swifter than yours

We had the Duke of Roxbughe at Melbury Park a few years back. Everybody cheered when he missed one, after fifteen straight kills on one drive.