GWP Vs GSP ....?

[TOMMO.B]

Hi Guys,

Just looking for some thoughts. Beyond the coats, what are the actual (temperament, working aptitude, train-ability etc) differences between German Shothaired Pointers and German Wirehaired Pointers?

The context of this question is that my wife has approved either breed for our family home (including very young children). I'm not an experienced gundog trainer but I shoot driven game 5 - 10 times a year and would like a dog to sit on the peg with me and make the occasional retrieve. I would like to beat or pick-up on a similar number of days with the dog obviously doing more work on those occasions. I stalk muntjac, roe and fallow in the South of England all year round on average once a week and would like a good dog to walk to heel, air scent and blood track where required.

I realise that this is the classic "I need an all round dog" question and that the correct answer is probably a Labrador but ..... the set shortlist is clear; GSP or GWP. I was set on the GSP but a recent article in the Shooting Times has had me question that. I'd love everyone's thoughts.

J

PS: No space for a new dog for at least another 18 months so I have plenty of time to decide!

you will have to work out if you want a dog for the rifle, or a dog for the gun. They are not the easiest to train if you have no clue. and trying to get the dog to do both leads to some trouble in future.
Dont listen to horror storys..But no smoke with out fire and all that.
if you want a peg dog then get a lab.ATB Tommy

 

[243 fallow]

A quality lab is what you need, just looking at your original post suggests that . Get some experience training a lab and move onto an hpr at a later date. Maybe have a look around you on shoot days and see what the pickers up are using and pick their brains. With respect and I don't wish to upset anyone I've yet to see a good hpr, however I've seen plenty of bad labs as well but the Labrador is a fairly easy dog to train for the aspiring dog trainer.

 

[Deutsch - Drahthaar]

I have two GWP's and both are different. The one I have had from a pup is really great at air scenting and pointing and pretty good at following up deer. He's quite good on a peg and retrieves well on land and from water but its has taken a long time to master, he's 6 now and only just starting to steady down. Unfortunately, he's always been up for a fight with any sized male dogs and doesn't know when to stop. From a young age he was very difficult to control and the only way I could was to be very hard on him, however, his nose and pointing abilities are some of the best I have seen and I wouldn't be without him at my side when stalking.

I also gained a bitch at 5 years old, she is more steady. She is also untrustworthy with other dogs and will attack sometimes unprovoked. Her pointing isn't as good as my male but her long range tracking ability is better. Both dogs will easily single handed pull a injured mature roe buck and dispatch quickly if required. Both dogs have more than enough stamina to go all day every day. GWP's don't lack drive and are great stalking dogs, but If I was starting again I would seriously consider for a Labrador or GWP x Lab.

 

[Shabz]

Has Jackie made Decoy up now Shabz?
Last time i spoke she had just had that cracking result at the hpr championships (can't mind if it was 2nd or 3rd now but i thnk there was no 1st place? but i may be wrong on that) and decoy was just '1 leg up'

I take it it must be lined was chris's kennel trudvang ftch? (can't remember if it was 'patch' he made up now)
His kennel tends to be lovely temperement dogs and quite small frame compared to some but usually hard hunting

Not wanting to go against the above advice but i'd say any FT bred hpr's would be a complete waste, both for the OP as could be very hot and u'll have a constant battle to rein it in and for the dog being reined in when it just wants to go.
A FT bred hpr will be bred for range, speed and style amoungst other things, but there the last things u ant in a peg or beating line dog. chances are quite a few of the litter will be too hot for a novice handler or any handler if ur wanting ur dog to sit on a peg. Not wot they were bred for
Must admit jackie's bitch is a cracking dog but a lot slower than it's ftch uncle? quill its an absolute beast of a dog a covers ground very quickly, 2 very different dogs that u wouldn't think were related when u watch them work. But both lovely temperments

Modern FT breeding now offers very little for ur average shooting dog/handler (wether spaniel or lab) the hpr FT scene is still more like a shooting day over pointers but has no similarity to driven shooting sitting at a peg or beating

U'd be better for a less well bred pup of slower more steady parents (wether gsp or gwp) as gsp's tend to be even faster and rangier when they working open ground. Possibly some dogs of here woud be a better bet.

I'm sure if u spoke to a few breeders they would help u

Yes, she was made up at the back end of last year. I even got a certificate for having bred a FTCH. (I don't know why, it's not like I had much to do with it!). The Sire is Chris Gray's dog, is it Trudvang Balder? I've never met Chris or his dogs but mine is ultimately from his lines.

You're probably right about FT bred dogs. Mine loves to range, I know that. She's not much use in a beating line but she'll do everything else (if a little reluctantly). I would absolutely have another one when she goes though, I think if I had my time again and had as much work as I have now, she'd be a completely different dog. Stalking with her absolutely focused her and helped us to bond a bit more. She hunts for us now rather than hunting for herself. I do think she'd be a different dog if she had learned the discipline required for stalking at an earlier age.

I know a few dogs that came from Mustwork in Wales too. They're good steady dogs, more suited to driven type shooting I would expect. I've never met one with a bad temperament either. Probably worth investigating for the OP.

 

[highland stalker]

I knew it wouldn't be long before the horror stories started. Ultimately you have to get a dog that you actually want. I do agree about the FT lines being a bit hot. Personally I wouldn't be bothered for a FT line bred dog unless you actually plan to trial it. Too hot for 99% of normal everyday shooting. I have a fairly steady GWP bitch that I plan to breed with a German import dog later this year. PM me your email address if you'd like some photos.

 

[countrryboy]

Congrats for breeding it, it is still quite something to say. Not that many ftch wire's anyway

I've been lucky enough to shoot over both jackies champ dogs althou decoy was still youngish and was just picking it up the last time but a lot steadier and easier handled than her older dog.
Quill her 1st champ which is a brother to ur's is an absolute flying machine.

I think balder is called patch, can't remember if its bred by chris or a danish import

If u speak to old gun dog handlers 30+ yrs ago even with labs the male dogs could be hard to handle possibly why bitch where prefered, but nowadays with modern breeding u can hardly notice the difference between dogs and bitches in temperment but with HPR's there still seems to be a big difference with some btches being very steady placid things while a dog pup out same litter can be a mental flying machine.
I know of a few litters where the bitches are very steady biddable things while the dogs are complete rockets


I've been kucky enough to work my mutts alongside, shoot over, train with and watch some of the best FT hpr dogs in UK, and while there absolutely brilliant on an open moor i wouldn't swap any of them for 1 of my dogs for beating line or picking up work.
Even the top well trained dogs are a pita beating on a keepers day, but they have been trained for something totally different. Just horses for courses
But i have seen some very steady, decent less well trained hpr's for normal shoot work, FT training is not a good thing for normal gundog work

Hpr's in general have been bred for hundreds of years to range and be athletic esp ur gsp's or wires are fastest most athletic of the type, so getting a pup bred from the fastest most athletic FT lines and expecting it to sit on its arse will always be a stuggle.
Which ever bred u decide i would be wanting a pup bred of a real plodder/carthorse rather than an athlete as ur requirements are not that high

 

[highland stalker]

Congrats for breeding it, it is still quite something to say. Not that many ftch wire's anyway

I've been lucky enough to shoot over both jackies champ dogs althou decoy was still youngish and was just picking it up the last time but a lot steadier and easier handled than her older dog.
Quill her 1st champ which is a brother to ur's is an absolute flying machine.

I think balder is called patch, can't remember if its bred by chris or a danish import

If u speak to old gun dog handlers 30+ yrs ago even with labs the male dogs could be hard to handle possibly why bitch where prefered, but nowadays with modern breeding u can hardly notice the difference between dogs and bitches in temperment but with HPR's there still seems to be a big difference with some btches being very steady placid things while a dog pup out same litter can be a mental flying machine.
I know of a few litters where the bitches are very steady biddable things while the dogs are complete rockets


I've been kucky enough to work my mutts alongside, shoot over, train with and watch some of the best FT hpr dogs in UK, and while there absolutely brilliant on an open moor i wouldn't swap any of them for 1 of my dogs for beating line or picking up work.
Even the top well trained dogs are a pita beating on a keepers day, but they have been trained for something totally different. Just horses for courses
But i have some some very steady less well trained hpr's for normal shoot work, FT training is not a good thing for normal gundog work

Hpr's in general have been bred for hundreds of years to range and be athletic esp ur gsp's or wires are fastest most athletic of the type, so getting a pup bred from the fastest most athletic FT lines and expecting it to sit on its arse will always be a stuggle.
Which ever bred u decide i would be wanting a pup bred of a real plodder/carthorse rather than an athlete as ur requirements are not that high

Sound advice as usual.

 

[Co1]

As mentioned above, GWP/ Lab might give you just what your looking for. If the Mrs likes the look of the GWP, the a rough haired bearded GWP/Lab may well tick the boxes. There are a few on here and all are cracking looking dogs. You've plenty of time to find one as well.

 

[GSPhunter]

I saw a comment on a forum once that's stuck with me "do what you want, you will anyway".

Having said that, I've worked with both over the last 5 years and I'll never own anything other than a GSP, personal preference.

In my experience I'd have to respectfully disagree with some of what is posted here. I find the coat is one of the least differing things about them. They're both great pets, but I believe they're completely different dogs.

 

[John Gryphon]

About 35 years ago I was given a GSP bitch pup,she hadn't been weaned long and came from a renowned non paper live in the middle of the quail country breeder. A Farm bred line of non papered but pure GSPs from as long as they were in Aus I believe.
I saw her almost turn inside out when she pointed her first bird which happened to be a good old Aussie blowfly that landed on a duck turd..true!
I was super impressed,Gypsy went on to be as good as any dog (bitch) that ever walked.
Having also owned pure GWP`s my answer is today that hybrid vigour as in GSPXGWP is the way to go.
Presumably the people that breed for show but dont hunt their dogs are as common in the UK as they are here.
Some of those show lines haven't seen a hair or should that be hare lol and not since Lazarus played for Celtic.

 

[RuralLondoner]

As mentioned above, GWP/ Lab might give you just what your looking for. If the Mrs likes the look of the GWP, the a rough haired bearded GWP/Lab may well tick the boxes. There are a few on here and all are cracking looking dogs. You've plenty of time to find one as well.

Oh that's a good thought actually - always like a bit of hybrid vigour. If anyone has any photos, would be good to run them past the boss!

J

 

[al4x1]

Here you go go if it works, I have two gwp's and a pretty similar mix of shooting to you, must be ok as I now have two! The basics are don't expect a lab behaviour and it will be hard work but worth it. Just check the breeding well don't look for the hottest one as they need a lot of work to keep them busy. Mine do 20 plus days beating and are surprisingly good at it. Funnily enough I find them easiest on big days when there are loads of birds about, they tend to work quietly and slowly and not flush big numbers. At the point where all the spaniels etc are being held up at the end of drives you can send these forward. These are house dogs and great with the children.

 

[Greymaster]

Rory Major has a litter of GWPs right now.

 

[RuralLondoner]

Here you go go if it works, I have two gwp's and a pretty similar mix of shooting to you, must be ok as I now have two! The basics are don't expect a lab behaviour and it will be hard work but worth it. Just check the breeding well don't look for the hottest one as they need a lot of work to keep them busy. Mine do 20 plus days beating and are surprisingly good at it. Funnily enough I find them easiest on big days when there are loads of birds about, they tend to work quietly and slowly and not flush big numbers. At the point where all the spaniels etc are being held up at the end of drives you can send these forward. These are house dogs and great with the children.

View attachment 79976

That might be the best picture I've ever seen!! My wife is totally smitten. She'd have the little girl too!!!! Just incredibly gorgeous.

 

[RuralLondoner]

Rory Major has a litter of GWPs right now.

Ha ha ha .... deffo no new dogs this year ...!

 

[Rob1562]

Pm sent.

Regards, Rob.

 

[cookingfat]

Oh that's a good thought actually - always like a bit of hybrid vigour. If anyone has any photos, would be good to run them past the boss!

J

J, have a look at this GWPcross
I saw her track last week, she is only a pup but what a tracker already,
she works at a lovely pace as you can see on this hoofs only trail which is over 20 hours old,
she has a very soft nature and is very biddable but has already proved her self to have the gwp drive to pull down.

 

[philross]

If it's a Peg dog you're after, get a peg to fit the hole - in this case a LAB.

 

[jwdeer]

Hi bogtrotter, hope you don't mind as I am just asking for a little advice really and it seems you have quite a lot of experience on this site. I am currently living in the Scottish Highlands as a full time ranger culling around 350 red, roe and sika. After 6 years I have decided to have a career change and leave the sector. The reason I would like advice is because I have a 3.5 year old GWP bitch and need to find her a new home (must be the right one). She is working well on the deer and sees them most days but still requires a lot of time/work as shes just started to proper come through, typical GWP head strong. It is a must that she goes to a working home... not someone who wants a robot or have a litter every year from her. Is there any way I can start to post in classified adds without having to post 30 times on the forum, only I don't want to just waste my time and others with silly comments just to get my numbers high. Kind Regards

 

[highland stalker]

Hi bogtrotter, hope you don't mind as I am just asking for a little advice really and it seems you have quite a lot of experience on this site. I am currently living in the Scottish Highlands as a full time ranger culling around 350 red, roe and sika. After 6 years I have decided to have a career change and leave the sector. The reason I would like advice is because I have a 3.5 year old GWP bitch and need to find her a new home (must be the right one). She is working well on the deer and sees them most days but still requires a lot of time/work as shes just started to proper come through, typical GWP head strong. It is a must that she goes to a working home... not someone who wants a robot or have a litter every year from her. Is there any way I can start to post in classified adds without having to post 30 times on the forum, only I don't want to just waste my time and others with silly comments just to get my numbers high. Kind Regards

Try posting it in this section. It may not be the done thing and it may get removed but if your thread is genuine then it may get left.
Best of luck with finding your dog a new home.