Hanoverian not Bavarian litter

[Wolverine]

Baron dont you think my txt cross would be a short cut to tracking glory,s . I here there is a set of sent shoes winging there way down to me for a wee go.Thanks. I will let you know how i get on with them. by the way crosses are for on graves

I think that cross would be perfect for getting under thick sitka,will send them down asap

 

[Cut+Squirt]

I have an iron or two in the fire regarding compulsory testing of dog and handlerNot everyone will be enamoured

Wolverine.............you have my attention, tell us all a bit more.
I'm nervous that if compulsory testing arrives at my door all these thousands of pounds of revenue gained from all these lost deer that I get called out too find may soon be drying up.

Every other facet of our shooting lives are currently under strain and threat by compulsory testing, do we really want to compulsory test our dogs as well?

Or like me, do we simply want a dog which when it all goes wrong will go and find / secure the beast?

Personally I just want my dog to find the deer...............If it wants to do so by air scent, fine. If it wants to work the ground, equally fine..............If it want to do a mixture of both whilst balancing a cricket ball on its nose, I don't care as long as it finds the wounded deer.

There is a distinct difference between a 'deer dog' {which I would clasify mine} and a dedicated tracking dog. My dog is with me every time I stalk, twice / three times a week sometimes. She is used regularly on hot scent, as I stalk in seriously dense sitka spruce with lots of wind blown trees, it is very easy to loose a beast that has run 25 yards let alone 1km as I have seen mentioned in other threads.

She has also been used on cold scent of up to 16 hours, again with no problems. . . Where is the demand though for a dog that will track a beast 36 hours after the shot for 1km ?

As far as i can see, there are very limited opportunities to use a BMH / HS to it full potential in this country. How often realistically will you need to track a beast with a 'proper tracking dog', when a good lab, or HPR has failed?
I would suggest very seldom.

This is not to say mind you that I dont like either of these breeds, as its quite the contrary, I think they are fantastic looking dogs and quite obviously fantastic trackers, I sometimes just question what they offer IN THE REAL WORLD that the HPR's labs of the stalking world don't?

 

[Wolverine]

Compulsory in the idea of a tracking register that dog and handler has to be tested,once passed availability to be called upon(time to do this)No money making schemes involved
Im banding about a few ideas in the old grey matter that is all
HS/BGS are dogs that can find where others won't,after handlers and other dogs have wandered everywhere over the track,they are the specialists called in a day or two after but they can/will track hot as well
How old Cadex has your GWP found after a shot,ie the age of track,our dogs should be able to track cold too is the point I'm making

 

[jamross65]

As far as i can see, there are very limited opportunities to use a BMH / HS to it full potential in this country. How often realistically will you need to track a beast with a 'proper tracking dog', when a good lab, or HPR has failed?
I would suggest very seldom.

Cadex

Shame on you! You do your dog an injustice mate, and if she could read she would be rolling her eyes behind your back.

I don't think you are even scratching the surface in reaching her potential on a hot scent from a wounded deer, she is capable of much, much more if needs be. My eyes were opened recently as to how much a BMH or HS is actually a 'deer finding dog' (in the right hands).

You are right of course, at the end of the day it is all about finding the deer, not obtaining bragging rights to say you were able to find it after 5 days...

However, I think you will find this is more about protecting the integrity and working ability of certain breeds to prevent them going the same way as other breeds in this country when they fall into the wrong hands.

 

[Wolverine]

Demand for a dog to find a 36hour long track at 750m does that count,last month

 

[barongcw]

Wolverine.............you have my attention, tell us all a bit more.
I'm nervous that if compulsory testing arrives at my door all these thousands of pounds of revenue gained from all these lost deer that I get called out too find may soon be drying up.

Cadex100.......you have my attention, tell us all a bit more.

How do you manage to make thousands of pounds tracking deer for others? You are unique.

I would have thought as as you charge "no find/no fee" it would be in your interest to find every deer.
A BMH or HS is as easy to train as a GWP and because of the way they are bred and trained they are better at really complicated tracks.
But the proof of the pudding is in the eating. How many deer have you lost/not found in the last 5 years? Hundreds of pounds worth? As a Dutchman I start to salivate.

And rest assured my old HS comes out with me every time. The young one just started her training so for the moment it is classroom only with no outings for her.

 

[Wolverine]

If dog and handler know what they're doing and know how to track I for one don't understand the negativity towards testing,does it show faults of dog and handler,yes but do you not then learn from this and get better
Then again no one needs to learn more in the UK about dogs,on the continent they don't know what they've been doing for the last couple of centuriesThen we wonder why they're so reluctant to let these dogs come here in the first place
Well we in the UK don't know all there is to know about dogs and if we keep such a closed mind to things we won't be learning much in the future either,any dog IMO can find hot scent it's the cooler tracks that test dogs and handlers abilities
I also think testing should be done to dog and bitch before breeding,if not up to standard not allowed to breed,simple,it would help to focus people's minds a bit more me thinks and only the dogs up to standard are bred and the best dogs go on to breed rather than any dog and bitch having their fun
Tin hat on!

 

[Cut+Squirt]

I knew it, the same old faces - Wolverine - Baron - Jamross. . . . .

Baron, I was joking, I don't make a brass penny from call outs, since I placed the advert she has been used twice in anger, both easy finds and I didn't charge a cent as they were both very close by. It was said tongue in cheek!!!

In all fairness i'm not completely against testing to maintain the integrity of the breed, what I am against testing for is simply to be on a deer dog register.................I have an asset, my dog can find deer, why should I need to prove it by following a line of blood for so many yards?

My dog has been trained / training on real deer and doing quite nicely for my intended purpose.

And I think thats the crux of it. . . . . . she meets my purpose and requirements of a deer dog.

You guys obviously require a dog that is trained and able to track a deer days after the initial shot on a cold scent, I don't.

If after 36 hours i'm still pondering over whether / how i'm going to find that darn runner, I think I would have failed in my responsibilities on welfare grounds.


I don't have time to address the other points made, but will reply properly later.

 

[Jagare]

We don’t have compulsory tracking tests here in Sweden. The numbers of tracks carried out every year on traffic injured game runs into the tens of thousand that’s without tracking shot game.
Before you can do a hunting test , not tracking test with your dog you must have shown it and the dog must have got at least a third placing. This is to keep the conformity of our hunting breeds good. The Swedish Kennel club is very hunter friendly.
There is more tracking done here in Sweden than 5 Denmark’s and Belgium’s put together.
Why is there a great rush to get compulsory tests? It would be better to encourage more people to train their dogs to a better standard before worrying about compulsory testing.
There is no tracking test system in place in the UK or qualified tracking test judges. So who, how will these test be judged. Without the test results recognised by the UK Kennel club so any Certificate won is a worthless piece of paper
I’ve nothing against testing tracking dogs. I’ve enjoyed getting mine up to champion status, Recognised by the Skk.
3 open test with a 1[SUP]st[/SUP] 2 of the tests with distinction merits

 

[6pointer]

Well i am on the the fence with this because like Cadex i use my dog as an out an out deer dog with me all the time at heal winding and just a good companion.Buck (HWV) replacement is now starting to work like him must be my influence. But i also want to try her on cold sent and have been laying the odd track and trying her on a harness i hope she dose well at both .But if she is only good at one it will need to be the hot sent deer dog. Compulsory testing no.But i think that any one that stalks deer and has that on there FAC should have access to a trained dog and must be able to prove it .

 

[barongcw]

I knew it, the same old faces - Wolverine - Baron - Jamross. . . . .

Baron, I was joking, I don't make a brass penny from call outs, since I placed the advert she has been used twice in anger, both easy finds and I didn't charge a cent as they were both very close by. It was said tongue in cheek!!!

In all fairness i'm not completely against testing to maintain the integrity of the breed, what I am against testing for is simply to be on a deer dog register.................I have an asset, my dog can find deer, why should I need to prove it by following a line of blood for so many yards?

My dog has been trained / training on real deer and doing quite nicely for my intended purpose.

And I think thats the crux of it. . . . . . she meets my purpose and requirements of a deer dog.

You guys obviously require a dog that is trained and able to track a deer days after the initial shot on a cold scent, I don't.

If after after 36 hours i'm still pondering over whether / how i'm going to find that darn runner, I think I would have failed in my responsibilities on welfare grounds.


I don't have time to address the other points made, but will reply properly later.

What a pity, I thought you had found the holy grail.

As for testing I have the best dog in the world. Unbeatable, I use her 3 times a week and find everything. You might wel believe that but I do not.
Therefor testing is simply a stamp from an outsider who knows what he is talking about that the dog can perform up to a certain level as seen not by the proud owner but by an independant third party.
When I buy a second hand car I do not necessarily believe the seller but more the RAC tester.
That is all there is to it.
Would you not feel more confident if you have to contact an outside tracker if you knew his dog was tested up to a certain level? I would.
And as a professional you will know that some wounds produce no blood, therefor the dogs are trained on the tracking shoe without blood. Once learned, never forgotten.

 

[jamross65]

I knew it, the same old faces - Wolverine - Baron - Jamross. . . . .

You have to admit, its fun though...

 

[barongcw]

Well i am on the the fence with this because like Cadex i use my dog as an out an out deer dog with me all the time at heal winding and just a good companion.Buck (HWV) replacement is now starting to work like him must be my influence. But i also want to try her on cold sent and have been laying the odd track and trying her on a harness i hope she dose well at both .But if she is only good at one it will need to be the hot sent deer dog. Compulsory testing no.But i think that any one that stalks deer and has that on there FAC should have access to a trained dog and must be able to prove it .

And would you not feel more confident if that dog was up to a certain level as verified by an independant third party?

 

[jamross65]

That is one thing 6pointer refers to that I would think cannot be a bad thing, and that is the access to a trained deer dog being required for every stalker...

Only issue is, who says it is trained? The owner, or is there a test for such a dog I assume in the countries where it is a requirement.

 

[barongcw]

We don’t have compulsory tracking tests here in Sweden. The numbers of tracks carried out every year on traffic injured game runs into the tens of thousand that’s without tracking shot game.
Before you can do a hunting test , not tracking test with your dog you must have shown it and the dog must have got at least a third placing. This is to keep the conformity of our hunting breeds good. The Swedish Kennel club is very hunter friendly.
There is more tracking done here in Sweden than 5 Denmark’s and Belgium’s put together.
Why is there a great rush to get compulsory tests? It would be better to encourage more people to train their dogs to a better standard before worrying about compulsory testing.
There is no tracking test system in place in the UK or qualified tracking test judges. So who, how will these test be judged. Without the test results recognised by the UK Kennel club so any Certificate won is a worthless piece of paper
I’ve nothing against testing tracking dogs. I’ve enjoyed getting mine up to champion status, Recognised by the Skk.
3 open test with a 1[SUP]st[/SUP] 2 of the tests with distinction merits

For a list of trackers to have any value the dogs must be of a certain standard as verified by an approved outsider. That is all there is to it. Call it compulsory if you like.
But you are right, it is very early days. No approved judges as yet but we are working on that.

 

[6pointer]

Baron compulsory testing for me is a no no but like the DMQ2 The voluntary option is the way i would go. There would be a standard and i am sure as dogs are proven to reach that standard they will be the ones used . I am sure the FC and SNH will not be long before they ask any of there field staff to have a trained dog they already need one for night shooting. Lease holders will need one if they are to have an option to use the night shooting part of a lease. Keep it voluntary but make sure that there is a voluntary standard start it at a low level at first get as many on board as possible then move the goal posts and get an increase in standards.

 

[barongcw]

That is one thing 6pointer refers to that I would think cannot be a bad thing, and that is the access to a trained deer dog being required for every stalker...

Only issue is, who says it is trained? The owner, or is there a test for such a dog I assume in the countries where it is a requirement.

Do not know the rules in the 26? european countries but in Germany you can quite easily Google a map that shows you where the nearest tracking station or tracker is based. And Rudi has for his part of Belgium one telephone number that you can ring.

 

[jamross65]

Do not know the rules in the 26? european countries but in Germany you can quite easily Google a map that shows you where the nearest tracking station or tracker is based. And Rudi has for his part of Belgium one telephone number that you can ring.

Can anyone claim to have a trained tracking dog though? I'm sure I have read that in the Scandinavian countries it has to be a proven trained dog, assuming therefore testing. But elsewhere where a trained dog must be at hand is the testing also compulsory?

 

[barongcw]

Can anyone claim to have a trained tracking dog though? I'm sure I have read that in the Scandinavian countries it has to be a proven trained dog, assuming therefore testing. But elsewhere where a trained dog must be at hand is the testing also compulsory?

Know that certain approved tracking dogs in Germany get an allowance from the county but am not certain if they have to pass an exam.

 

[barongcw]

Baron compulsory testing for me is a no no but like the DMQ2 The voluntary option is the way i would go. There would be a standard and i am sure as dogs are proven to reach that standard they will be the ones used . I am sure the FC and SNH will not be long before they ask any of there field staff to have a trained dog they already need one for night shooting. Lease holders will need one if they are to have an option to use the night shooting part of a lease. Keep it voluntary but make sure that there is a voluntary standard start it at a low level at first get as many on board as possible then move the goal posts and get an increase in standards.

I am not so much thinking about compulsion by the state for approved tracking dogs but compulsion to have passed a test before you can be put on a tracking register.
Totally agree with a DMQ2 type of test. But it needs a large organisation to handle it. too big for an individual or even a swmall group.