Has the "Thermal" Spoiled Deer Stalking?
- Thread starter Ackers
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HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
I personally don’t use it, I found it ruined my enjoyment of a nice morning or evening out in the countryside.
hedge hunter
Well-Known Member
I use it but know when too stop
ASl sniper.177
Well-Known Member
Every advancement in technology has made it easier to kill more animals and birds. Back in the day,the English Longbow was the most feared weapon on the battlefield. Thing's move on on. It's how you choose to use the modern technology that counts. I've used night vision and thermal for longer than 90% of shooters,and I still use it. The thing is,I decide how I use it,and that quite often means packing up early at last light when I've shot 4 or 5 deer with an Alpex 4k with upto 35-40 minutes of legal light left with the help of a thermal spotter. If I had stayed on longer,I may have shot more. There will always be people who push the limits of technology,but it doesn't have to be you! Each to their own.
Deermanagement
Well-Known Member
The post title asks if it has spoiled “deer stalking”. Of course it has. It enables people who do not know how to stalk deer to go out, find deer, and kill them. They can be successful “deer killers” but will never be a “half decent deer stalker”
This comes from someone who realised the advantages of using a thermal long before most people even considered them. It’s enabled me to vastly increase an estates muntjac cull specifically, whilst other stalkers on the same estate really seen muntjac.
I’m sure that those stalkers, the ones that may have had a shot every 10 outings or so, using thermal would allow them to become proper “deer stalkers”
My definition of a decent “deer stalker”, would be someone who can go out, find deer, identify them using glass, and then stalk into a range where they can be shot with near 100% ethical shooting. With thermal, someone can go for a walk, find deer, and then maybe do the second and third parts. A good stalker using thermal under most scenarios is an efficient killing machine
My numbers are not huge compared to many but with the 95 out of the 105 deer last year and 49 foxesThe post title asks if it has spoiled “deer stalking”. Of course it has. It enables people who do not know how to stalk deer to go out, find deer, and kill them. They can be successful “deer killers” but will never be a “half decent deer stalker”
This comes from someone who realised the advantages of using a thermal long before most people even considered them. It’s enabled me to vastly increase an estates muntjac cull specifically, whilst other stalkers on the same estate really seen muntjac.
I’m sure that those stalkers, the ones that may have had a shot every 10 outings or so, using thermal would allow them to become proper “deer stalkers”
My definition of a decent “deer stalker”, would be someone who can go out, find deer, identify them using glass, and then stalk into a range where they can be shot with near 100% ethical shooting. With thermal, someone can go for a walk, find deer, and then maybe do the second and third parts. A good stalker using thermal under most scenarios is an efficient killing machine
10 deer were in glass scope time all the foxes were in the dark and the 95 were shot when with a glass scope it would be a
"guess" so if you as a "deer manager" endorse guessing please speak up.
It is quite simple none of us and especially myself take a blind bit of notice what you type as what I or other people do is
nothing to do with you, also the number of farms I shoot for are very happy.
Take your clipboard & pen and go tick a few more boxes.
@theroedeerguy
Well-Known Member
100% this.
I find thermal has completely enhanced my deer stalking experience by being able to gain a more accurate insight of how many deer are on the ground and also enjoy seeing a host of wildlife, especially bird species that I would otherwise probably overlook whilst looking solely for deer through binoculars.
The deer management aims and strategy remains constant, thermal simply gives me more opportunities to decide if I’m going to pull the trigger or not.
ASl sniper.177
Well-Known Member
I know quite a few stalkers with all the modern kit,and still don't grass that many deer. You can use thermal for finding deer,but that doesn't mean there's a shot on because you can't even see a hair when you look through the scope. I've lost count of how many times I've seen a full thermal image of a deer,but nothing was visible through the scope. I would say I don't agree with using thermal rifle scopes for shooting deer in thick cover for the same reason as there's way to much risk of wounding. I have no problem using thermal spotters for finding deer as I'm not interested in killing everything I see. I remember an interesting conversation I had with an old stalker in the mid 70s. The conversation went along the lines of me asking why he hadn't got at telescopic sight on his rifle,and his reply was,I don't use one because it's an unfair advantage,and not fair on the deer!
The conversation on the ethics of ever improving technology has probably raged since gunpowder first propelled a projectile down a barrel. Use common sense and some thought for what you are shooting,and you won't go far wrong.
The conversation on the ethics of ever improving technology has probably raged since gunpowder first propelled a projectile down a barrel. Use common sense and some thought for what you are shooting,and you won't go far wrong.
kernowshooting
Member
given that there are no natural predators, I can't see us every runing out of whatever deer species that we have here. Scotland have far too many and there are areas in the South and South East that they are causing untold damage, and that's not even talking about Boar.. thermal is a game changer and it can only help with the management of these animals that have reproduced without control
A huge step change in technology which allows us to overcome the quarries only real protection from us, the ability to remain unseen. It is not a natural progression in technology. Ie rock to spear to arrow to bullet, or human eye to magnified image via binoculars. It is bigger than that. A huge change that our quarry cannot evolve or adapt to overcome.
ASl sniper.177
Well-Known Member
If people want to give any quarry we legally shoot with rifles the best chance to survive,then we should all stop using thermals,digital scopes,glass scopes and binoculars,and revert to the good old mark one eyeball and iron sights. Any of the aforementioned advancements in technology has increased the ability of any hunter over the years to kill more deer than previous generations of stalkers had.
As I've previous said,use common sense and have respect for what your shooting. I for one,have no interest in wiping out the deer where I shoot,and we shoot them pretty hard but we're still seeing numbers go up. Without all the modern technology mentioned above,we would be fighting a losing battle.
As I've previous said,use common sense and have respect for what your shooting. I for one,have no interest in wiping out the deer where I shoot,and we shoot them pretty hard but we're still seeing numbers go up. Without all the modern technology mentioned above,we would be fighting a losing battle.
Deermanagement
Well-Known Member
No apologies needed..... I'm replying to a question the OP asked, "has thermal spoiled deer stalking". I've just highlighed the difference between stalking and killing. When I refered to glass, it was binoculars, to get 100% identification of the target and whats between it an you. Thermal is a superb tool for checking the immeadiate vicinity of other targets and non targets, but obviously not fool proof.My numbers are not huge compared to many but with the 95 out of the 105 deer last year and 49 foxes
10 deer were in glass scope time all the foxes were in the dark and the 95 were shot when with a glass scope it would be a
"guess" so if you as a "deer manager" endorse guessing please speak up.
It is quite simple none of us and especially myself take a blind bit of notice what you type as what I or other people do is
nothing to do with you, also the number of farms I shoot for are very happy.
Take your clipboard & pen and go tick a few more boxes.
As suggested, 3 elements required to be a good "deer stalker" as I think suggested by the OP, finding, stalking and shooting. The first ability is very much removed by thermal, the second and third parts still apply unless you are using a thermal scope, which is fine for open ground but open to issues shooting through woodland, and then of course open to the chance of using beyond legal hours.
I have a colleague that has suggested the use of his Swarovski add-on as light fades, but I've drawn the line here, as his Swarovski glass should be more than adequate. He does finish as much as 20 mins before me using the same equipment but I'm not sure if it's his vision or the lack of confidence in using the glass under those conditions. I do feel a little bit and understand some frustration, and I'm not going to say that maybe, one day, if I'm still stalking and my eyes deteriorate to the point I loose so much time, I'lll revert to the dark side, the side I've used since 2012
I do a block of woodland that until 2 years ago was under the control of a "professional" for the hind/doe season. He was paid to keep the deer numbers down and visited every week. With great enthusiasm he once told me that he had shot over 14,000 deer and in the last season he was there, winter 22/23, he said that he's just started to use a thermal spotter and "that was the was the way to get deer"....... no shite sherlock
A bit late to the party for a "professional". So I look after the area in entirety now,I've raised cull numbers without having to go there every week...... maybe the benefit of around 25 years traditional deer stalking, the type that many nowadays miss out on.Going back to thermal.......... yes..... spoiled deer stalking in the sense of the OP....... makes it easy and relatively easy for people to go kill some deer....... or foxes for that matter. And when it comes to foxes, I guess I shot a lot more the average "foxer" without using thermal. With a fully kitted out SJ413 with 360 degree shooting, back in the day when I controlled foxes over large areas of land and grouse moor. Driver, lamp man and shooter all in radio contact, we would kill over 80% of all foxes seen, it may have been nearer 85%. That was just control, it was easy and given the choice between this set up and thermal, it's more enjoyable for all, driver, lamp man and shooter, to see what's ging on.
Why are numbers up that is the question ?
One of the many answers is most people have to have jobs which pay the bills keep the house/kids/holidays/car/pets
which is the largest % of their lives. There is simply not enough time for people to go out and shoot deer, other factors storing/selling them the waste involved coupled with the return for what is shot.
It is a good pass time but that is all it is TBH and numbers will continue to rise and rise, there are more limiting factors due to peoples day to day lives which is fine but that is a good proportion to why there are so many deer lol
You replied to my quote lol look at #226No apologies needed..... I'm replying to a question the OP asked, "has thermal spoiled deer stalking". I've just highlighed the difference between stalking and killing. When I refered to glass, it was binoculars, to get 100% identification of the target and whats between it an you. Thermal is a superb tool for checking the immeadiate vicinity of other targets and non targets, but obviously not fool proof.
As suggested, 3 elements required to be a good "deer stalker" as I think suggested by the OP, finding, stalking and shooting. The first ability is very much removed by thermal, the second and third parts still apply unless you are using a thermal scope, which is fine for open ground but open to issues shooting through woodland, and then of course open to the chance of using beyond legal hours.
I have a colleague that has suggested the use of his Swarovski add-on as light fades, but I've drawn the line here, as his Swarovski glass should be more than adequate. He does finish as much as 20 mins before me using the same equipment but I'm not sure if it's his vision or the lack of confidence in using the glass under those conditions. I do feel a little bit and understand some frustration, and I'm not going to say that maybe, one day, if I'm still stalking and my eyes deteriorate to the point I loose so much time, I'lll revert to the dark side, the side I've used since 2012
I do a block of woodland that until 2 years ago was under the control of a "professional" for the hind/doe season. He was paid to keep the deer numbers down and visited every week. With great enthusiasm he once told me that he had shot over 14,000 deer and in the last season he was there, winter 22/23, he said that he's just started to use a thermal spotter and "that was the was the way to get deer"....... no shite sherlock
Going back to thermal.......... yes..... spoiled deer stalking in the sense of the OP....... makes it easy and relatively easy for people to go kill some deer....... or foxes for that matter. And when it comes to foxes, I guess I shot a lot more the average "foxer" without using thermal. With a fully kitted out SJ413 with 360 degree shooting, back in the day when I controlled foxes over large areas of land and grouse moor. Driver, lamp man and shooter all in radio contact, we would kill over 80% of all foxes seen, it may have been nearer 85%. That was just control, it was easy and given the choice between this set up and thermal, it's more enjoyable for all, driver, lamp man and shooter, to see what's ging on.
The op was #1
ASl sniper.177
Well-Known Member
Mainly because we've got deer moving in from outside. We've recently started to have wild fallow turn up on the estate,where previously we'd had none. Plus,with 800 plus acres of woodland with some of the best under growth I've seen anywhere,it's very difficult to spot the deer even with thermal,and as I've said in my previous posts,seeing them in the thermal and them presenting a clean shot are two different things.
Apart from those with tag's I thought all deer were wild, granted some might used to seeing people but they are "wild" so go as they please.
ASl sniper.177
Well-Known Member
Wild fallow are exactly that. Escapees from deer parks don't have ear tags,and I. should know. Farmed deer have ear tags,and as far as I know,they're all red deer. Fallow that have escaped from a deer park behave totally differently from wild fallow. So in short,we have wild fallow turning up on our estate.
Are Muntjac and CWD wild as they escaped and turn up on farms/estates also do they behave any different?
Fallow have had a long time to change mj/cwd 100 years roaming around and moving on.
When is a door not a door when it is ajar
Sorry, in my opinion all technology changes peoples perception as well as how they carry out a task or hobby. It does not matter what that task or hobby is. Scopes v iron sights, rifles v bows, eyeball v bino's v thermal. it its not better or worse but different. Now some may feel it was better the way they used to do it, some may prefer the change. That is an individuals perception.
It is the same in other sports newer golf balls travel further, newer race cars stick to the road better have better suspension and tyres so they can go round a track quicker, people become fitter due to better diet, more scientific training, better shoes etc. It is how we now have forums and web sites rather than a weekly/monthly newspaper of magazine.... everything changes.... some things quickly, some slowly.... If you do not like the modern methods, there is nothing forcing you to use them...... anyone want some flint to help with the skinning/butchering
It is the same in other sports newer golf balls travel further, newer race cars stick to the road better have better suspension and tyres so they can go round a track quicker, people become fitter due to better diet, more scientific training, better shoes etc. It is how we now have forums and web sites rather than a weekly/monthly newspaper of magazine.... everything changes.... some things quickly, some slowly.... If you do not like the modern methods, there is nothing forcing you to use them...... anyone want some flint to help with the skinning/butchering
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