Help/Advice Sought: Open FAC Withdrawal Without Land

[Nkawu]

I am hoping for some help or advice from the collective.

For the last few years, I have had an open certificate which has allowed me to use my .22lr for vermin and my 270 and 30-06 for deer and any other lawful quarry. My 375 H&H remains limited to range use and overseas use only. A few times a year I pay for stalks through contacts made here on the SD, and Warwickshire police were perfectly fine with me not having my own stalking ground as I could prove I was going out to various parts of the country. I am a meat eater and a hunter at heart; I use the shooting range at my club purely to test reloads and practice for stalking.

Six months ago, I moved across the county line to Northamptonshire. It took a while, but I was recently visited by a very nice enquiry officer, and I now need to produce a letter giving me authority to pursue deer over a parcel of land. I have challenged this but apparently this is the rule here, and without a letter and accompanying maps etc. I can’t have an open certificate.

Now I have tried for years to secure my own stalking permission, but without getting into it, I have had no success.

Has anyone come up against a similar challenge? Should I just resign myself to range use only and focus on hunting internationally instead? I am feeling very frustrated as I have a stalk booked next month which now is an issue. I am left-handed so using an estate rifle is often not an option.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[nf-fuse]

I am hoping for some help or advice from the collective.

For the last few years, I have had an open certificate which has allowed me to use my .22lr for vermin and my 270 and 30-06 for deer and any other lawful quarry. My 375 H&H remains limited to range use and overseas use only. A few times a year I pay for stalks through contacts made here on the SD, and Warwickshire police were perfectly fine with me not having my own stalking ground as I could prove I was going out to various parts of the country. I am a meat eater and a hunter at heart; I use the shooting range at my club purely to test reloads and practice for stalking.

Six months ago, I moved across the county line to Northamptonshire. It took a while, but I was recently visited by a very nice enquiry officer, and I now need to produce a letter giving me authority to pursue deer over a parcel of land. I have challenged this but apparently this is the rule here, and without a letter and accompanying maps etc. I can’t have an open certificate.

Now I have tried for years to secure my own stalking permission, but without getting into it, I have had no success.

Has anyone come up against a similar challenge? Should I just resign myself to range use only and focus on hunting internationally instead? I am feeling very frustrated as I have a stalk booked next month which now is an issue. I am left-handed so using an estate rifle is often not an option.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I know of some land in Warwickshire on a syndicate. It's cheap. Obviously not as good as having your own land to yourself but could be helpful.

Pm me if you want details.

 

[WalkedUp]

Very frustrating and idiosyncratic application of the HO guidance by Northamptonshire. Apart from fighting it you could join a syndicate, or book some stalks as evidence?

 

[M@tt]

I would talk to BASC or one of the other organisations, they'll most likely have come across this before and have a suitably phrased response ready to send.
Which NGO one are you a member of?

 

[Nkawu]

I have stalks booked already, but that doesn't meet the requirement, unfortunately. I am a member of the National Gamekeepers Organisation.

 

[VSS]

You should challenge it, robustly.
Bookings for forthcoming stalking trips is all you need.
It is not a requirement to have your own ground.

 

[zambezi]

I have stalks booked already, but that doesn't meet the requirement

Politely ask what legislation supports that adjudication.

"Good reason" is the likely wording from which they are extrapolating this position.

If so, having confirmed [in writing] bookings with estates to hunt on their land must satisfy that criteria.

Regardless, get the NGO involved. You need to argue your case from a legally informed position.

 

[andyk]

What are they actually proposing to you? To say you can’t have a quarry condition at all or that you can have one, but it will be more restrictive than an open condition?

I’d challenge it either way but the distinction could prove important. If they’ll let your have a quarry condition, then all you can do is try to persuade them anything less than open is unnecessarily burdensome - but you can’t appeal conditions.

Arguably saying you can’t have a quarry condition at all is a partial refusal, which you could appeal if you were so minded, meaning you could get a bit more legal with them if they continue to refuse a quarry condition.

 

[muddy42]

PM sent

 

[Donkey Basher]

I have stalks booked already, but that doesn't meet the requirement, unfortunately. I am a member of the National Gamekeepers Organisation.

Then get in touch with them, explain the situation & ask them to deal with the licensing authority.

 

[spanj]

Politely ask what legislation supports that adjudication.

"Good reason" is the likely wording from which they are extrapolating this position.

If so, having confirmed [in writing] bookings with estates to hunt on their land must satisfy that criteria.

Regardless, get the NGO involved. You need to argue your case from a legally informed position.

Great advice. Law is law and guidance is exactly that

 

[Greenmist]

Politely and firmly state that as can be seen, you book stalks at various areas, that you need an open cert to allow you to go to different grounds when you book them, otherwise every time you book a stalk on new ground you will have to contact them for clearance, considering how poorly firearms depts are performing, they really do like to create unnecessary paperwork for themselves

 

[muddy42]

Plus book a stalk in Scotland, where the scottish police don't clear land, making the restriction unworkable.

 

[Rake Aboot]

Don’t pander to them , challenge them
Ask what law and rule they are applying and ask the Chief Constable to contact you to discuss the home office guidelines not being applied

Then ask for the decision in writing to pass to the IOPC

 

[SimpleSimon]

Find a polite way of telling them that they're talking bollocks.

The wording of the guidance suggests that they "may" carry out checks on land suitability and "may" apply a territorial restriction, not that they "must" or even "should". It also specifically says that an applicant needn't nominate a particular piece of land and that evidence of booked stalking is acceptable. Many forces no longer check land or keep a list of "land deemed suitable", so if you pay, or receive an invitation, to stalk in those areas you have no way of complying with your condition.

Ask them for the specific decision-making rationale that leads them to want to impose that condition. It's not acceptable just to say it's their policy, they have to assess each case by merit. The only option they have is to cite public safety, which you can easily challenge.

 

[3595wilk]

Are NorthantsPol trying to take off - for ease of understanding - your 'open' condition and change it to a 'closed' one?

The rationale being, as you don't have permission for deer on land......?

So if my interpretation of your post is correct, you will still have good reason in their argument to possess deer calibres. You can still shoot in the UK with them as outlined above. Have a look at Chapter 12 of the HO guidance on firearms.Booking stalks allows you to shoot with permission - even with a closed condition. You are allowed to possess and use your CF calibres as you have demonstrated good reason.........

The vermin control may be an issue - if you don't have land for that - and don't have permission to shoot vermin - not sure how it can remained conditioned for vermin and AOLQ......or indeed how WarksPol agreed it. Still can be conditioned for target though.

In terms of the open/closed situation, look at Chapter 10. I'd specifically ask NorthantsPol what grounds the local policy is made under. I suspect 10.15. If so, it makes it clear this must be on individual case by case basis, so may be an opportunity to challenge there.

The guidance is at pains to point out cases must be looked at on individual merits.......sounds like they are operating a blanket policy......

Hope you get it resolved.

 

[timbrayford]

I am hoping for some help or advice from the collective.

For the last few years, I have had an open certificate which has allowed me to use my .22lr for vermin and my 270 and 30-06 for deer and any other lawful quarry. My 375 H&H remains limited to range use and overseas use only. A few times a year I pay for stalks through contacts made here on the SD, and Warwickshire police were perfectly fine with me not having my own stalking ground as I could prove I was going out to various parts of the country. I am a meat eater and a hunter at heart; I use the shooting range at my club purely to test reloads and practice for stalking.

Six months ago, I moved across the county line to Northamptonshire. It took a while, but I was recently visited by a very nice enquiry officer, and I now need to produce a letter giving me authority to pursue deer over a parcel of land. I have challenged this but apparently this is the rule here, and without a letter and accompanying maps etc. I can’t have an open certificate.

Now I have tried for years to secure my own stalking permission, but without getting into it, I have had no success.

Has anyone come up against a similar challenge? Should I just resign myself to range use only and focus on hunting internationally instead? I am feeling very frustrated as I have a stalk booked next month which now is an issue. I am left-handed so using an estate rifle is often not an option.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Yes, Hampshire police are particularly awkward about this, I even had to send them a copy of home office guidance! I refused to provide any land authority as it was inappropriate, I've only ever bought stalking by the outing, in the end when I came up with a booking going forward they caved in, be persistent,it pays off!

 

[Heym SR20]

Firstly read and understand the Home Office guidance to police officers, especially the bits about land, permissions and taking deer stalking on a booked basis.

In particular take not of

12.10 The land need not be owned or rented by the applicant, nor need they have regular or automatic access to it. Farmers and landowners may allow shooters to shoot on their land, for payment or otherwise, on a formal or informal basis. An applicant need not always nominate a piece of land as evidence of “good reason”, but in such cases the applicant may be required, where possible, to provide written evidence, for example from a relevant organisation, a professional pest controller, gamekeeper or of a booking to shoot.


Secondly I would get back in touch with those whom you stalk with on a guided basis. Book another or two, and ask them to provide you with a letter of support - probably something for them to the effect of:

“To whom it may concern,

Bwana Nkawa has stalked on …. Regularly over the last upteen years as a client of the estate stalking deer. He uses 270 and 30-06 rifles. He has booked further dates for the next year and we look forward to his return anytime.

Yours etc.

Then go back to your new licencing authorities but your position forward to them.

These days Firearms Licensing is under intense scrutiny. There have a number of occasions where things have slipped through the cracks, and any good enquiry officer will probably not just take the word of another Police Force, but want to verify things for themselves.

 

[Heym SR20]

Duplicate

 

[Loki]

Hi

As you are with the NGO, may I suggest that you contact their Firearms Team and in particular Alan Barrell, who is very helpful in such matters of overstep by Polis Firearms Licensing Team Service.

The Teams/AB's details are usually in their magazine.

L