Help - Mounting a Scope.

[GTF]

Hi All,

I may or may not have stumbled on a mine field here. ?!

I recently bought a Zeiss Victory 6- 24 x 72 mm. as I have a Mannlicher 7mm 08 i was advised to get EAW mounts, apparently they are one of the few who can produce mounts to marry the two up perfectly.

Anyway had it all fitted by the gunsmith and went to the range. WOW after two shots i ran out of left hand windage. Which meant a return to the gunsmith. FIXED (they had not set it up 100%)

Back to the range and there was no consistency flyers everywhere. I was soooo frustrated I decided to take the scope off - its on the EAW pivot mounts which are supposed to hold the zero.

I noticed a glue like substance round the edge of the bases so I removed the based from the rifle and cleaned them all up of the flaky glue - should the glue have been there???

also reading various things on the net - it suggests you should remove the bluing from the base of the bases etc. Should I take the rings off the scope aswell ??

The question I have is - is there an expert out there than can talk me through what todo...

Help please.

Thanks
Graeme

 

[Peter Eaton]

Hi Greame

The flaky glue will probabley be thread locking compound , normally loctite 243 as it is easy to 'break' the bond if needed at a later date. Not all together sure what your asking but I know when I have had problems like this I have stripped the whole thing back and started from the begining. I have never run out of windage and a scope before but I have run out of eleviaton, this was cured with tiny thin slivers which were made into shims to raise or lower the scope. As for removing bluing, do you mean off the top of the rifle or the scope ring? If the rifle I wouldnt bother,some folk even cut a cross into the top of the rifle where the scope mount will sit but if you want to sell the rifle at a later date some folk might not want that.

Pete

 

[EMcC]

Hi Greame,
From what you have said and for the price you must have paid for your mounts, I would suggest you go back to the 'Gunsmith' I call him gunsmith with tongue in cheek as, from what you say he didn't even use a collimator or laser sighter to get anywhwere near your target otherwise he would have known the problem you found before you got on the Range.
You have a good quality 'scope so you should have enough windage and elevation to enable you to zero correctly with almost any sort of mounts.
Go back to the gunsmith and let him sort it out before you run out of ammo

 

[stalkinginengland]

Hi Greame,
From what you have said and for the price you must have paid for your mounts, I would suggest you go back to the 'Gunsmith' I call him gunsmith with tongue in cheek as, from what you say he didn't even use a collimator or laser sighter to get anywhwere near your target otherwise he would have known the problem you found before you got on the Range.
You have a good quality 'scope so you should have enough windage and elevation to enable you to zero correctly with almost any sort of mounts.
Go back to the gunsmith and let him sort it out before you run out of ammo

+1 on that . Has it got a Mod on it? I had a problem like this with a mod that was not screw cut correctly.


Mark

 

[GTF]

chickenman

To quote "Remove blueing from the plane contact surface of the pivot pin, and equally from the contact surfaces of bases and weapon"

 

[GTF]

EMcC


Thanks, there are great gunsmiths - i just think with this item they were a little out of their depth as i got the impression they hadn't seen a scope like it before. Anyway thanks for the feedback.

 

[Dawnraider]

I fitted EAW swing offs to my Sauer and although they recommend removing the blueing i didn't bother as i didn't fancy messing up a nice rifle,yes this is to make the glue stick,its two part UHU and is applied under at least the front base and at the bottom half of the rings,i aint no gunsmith but managed to set mine up no probs,there should be an adjustment on the ring for windage.
Neil.

 

[Dawnraider]

Forgot to say check your release lever,when the scope is on the lever should have a slight gap of a mil or two under it and not come into contact with the base,quite important causes problems if it does.

 

[bewsher500]

Problem I see is an awful lot of gun"shops" claiming to be gun"smiths".

With the huge range mounts (in design and size) and the huge range of scopes diameter, action lengths, curvature, thread pitch, dovetails, quick release, etc etc it is not the "fit and forget" job that some gunshops are happy to charge for.

I bought a 243 with an incredibly sticky bolt.
fortunately I like bargains and inclined to disassemble things into constituent parts. The seller sold the gun with a newly fitted scope done by a leading North East "gunsmith".

the issue was that rather than check to see if the bolts that came with the mounts were correct they assumed they were and whacked them on, screwing them straight through the receiver into the path of the bolt!!

the shocking thing is they didnt even check it before sending it back to him!

I personally wouldnt remove bluing.
It is likely to be inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. If you run out of scope windage or elevation it is not down to the blueing.
I wouldn't slaver the thing with threadlock or compound or glue or shims.

if it is well made and fits properly none of those things are necessary.

1) limit of windage is down to poor alignment. EAW bases have windage adjustment that the "smiths" may not have allowed for when fitting. Having just stripped a set down to individual parts and reblued them I am now a self proclaimed expert obviously [tongue in cheek]
2) Flyers due to scope fitting implies movement

my concern would be you have BOTH!

I personally think whilst they are extremely well made and claim to hold zero that dependant on the condition of the mounts you can easily lose zero on EAW swing off mounts as the metal to metal contact gets worn.

They did not favour as well as other designs in the QR contest that the Shooting Times ran a few months back.
I have seen well worn examples that would have easily lost 0.1-0.2mm off a mating surface over time. I also looked at a set in a gun"smiths" shop that had mishapen dovetail on the front mount but unless looked for would have been overlooked. No way it was going to offer a secure fitment.

do you have any pictures of said mounts and or the fitment?

 

[GTF]

Wow, thanks everyone.

As it happens one of my brothers clients was in Edinburgh and he is an expert in terms of rifles and scopes, and being Italian he is very familiar with these sort of set ups (apparently they use my combo for shooting wild boar under the moon light/ in snow as lamps are not permitted.)

He identified several problems the biggest being when he tapped near the eye piece of the scope the reticle/ Scope vibrated - on further inspection he worked out this was caused by 1) the mounts were un even (one side had a 1.5mm bigger gap than the other) and 2) they were on incredibly tight.

After all his adjustments it seems to me that it is 100% better.

I will let you all know how i get on next time i am out.

Thanks

 

[GTF]

 

[glogin]

I have the same mounts and never had a problem...

 

[HME]

From my own experience of these mounts it is absolutely essential that the correct torque settings are adhered to, a slightly uneven gap on the rings will not allow the reticle to vibrate providing they are torqued down correctly. Every quality mount/ring manufacturer will have a torque setting for their products, this can be especially important when there is a windage adjustment on the base. How many 'gunsmiths' have a torque screwdriver. I use mine every week without fail often just checking problem rifle/scope set ups and it never ceases to amaze me how many I have to adjust, a crappy little allen key is not the right tool for the job!

 

[bewsher500]

Why would the reticule vibrate? I assume you mean this is a bad thing?


It is important but the trouble with torque figures is they assume a specific size and tolerance and some designs leave a gap between rings when the scope is mounted to account for this.
A lot of scope mounts (most) when torqued up empty are slightly oval in shape.
This then means the torque response is reliant on scope size.
When you start anodising or painting a scope you lose all sense of accuracy and defined diameter.

Most scopes I have measured have a run out of between 0.01" and 0.005" (up to 0.25mm) at any one point of circumferance on the tube,
That could lead to a difference of 0.5mm from the line of axis. Imagine 0.25mm on the left side of the front scope mount and 0.25mm on the right side of the rear scope mount!

having built a few engines the bearing tolerances are much more finite and torque settings relay on bearing caps being seated.
When torqued up empty the bore is absolutely spherical. They are in fact line bored when torqued up to guarantee this.

with the many options of scope out there your mounts could be machined up to a tolerance of =/-0.001" but if your scope tube has a variance of up to 0.01" then it makes no difference. It is 100x worse than the mounts!
Its not quite round peg square hole....but not far off.

stack up these variables in upper ring to lower ring, from front ring to back ring, ring to mounts base, mount base to receiver (how many rifles do you know with machined receiver tops!?) and you can be very unlucky and be way off!

There should be a minimum and maximum torque setting IMO.
The lower to account for oversized tubes and the higher to account for undersized tubes.

otherwise the Burris signature/Optilock design is the one to go for. put "bearings" between your scope and rings
And it is not just on cheap scopes either.

 

[GTF]

Thanks to one and all, the problem is now sorted and to my delight on my first outing with my new scope, on my newest piece of ground i bagged a great cull buck, which is slightly perruke/ malformed - picture to follow.

 

[Brithunter]

Thank you for informing us f the successful solution.................................. Oh yes and congratulations on the Buck.