How old do you think this buck is (was)

[SDSRoe]

Hey folks, got my first buck on the ground yesterday, still relatively new to stalking and have never been able to take a buck on my permission before and as such am not adept at aging, wondering people’s thoughts? My guess was 3 or 4, but could be way off.

 

[Freeforester]

Older. The fact that he is clean at the beginning of April and showing a touch of colour on the antlers, suggests that it’s been a few weeks since he has been clean of velvet and well past the colourless stage;

Length of front tines relative to the rest of the antler length is a trait which increases relatively with age;

Sloping coronets with a clear gap between these, coupled with possibly one antler possibly appearing to be slightly advanced compared to the other when viewed from the side or above (‘marching head’)? This is an older beast trait, it would require a more careful look from said angles;

A look at the teeth, both the lower incisors and the molar wear can usually indicate age (to compare with others from your immediate area, so over time your perception of tooth wear (irrespective of sex) and will come with experience, also the relative ‘wear’ and relative roughness eg around the eye sockets, where the jaw muscles attach to the lower jaw, the central skull suture ( which develops more elaboration over time) will also help when visible if the trophy is retained and the skull is boiled - the meat on an older head being also tougher and requiring slightly more boiling time than a younger head will all serve to indicate relative age of animal;

The winter coat is held on to for longer among older animals when compared to younger brethren, the younger beast being first to show patches of summer coat in springtime, the pic suggests he’s still very much in winter coat; the colour around the eyes and lower jaw in the pic also suggest to me that he is older rather than middle aged.

I’d put him in the 5-7 year category personally, you can be pretty sure his eventual replacement will be a bold but cautious 3 year old, which will take a couple of seasons in the territory of ‘old Fred’ to become the new ‘Old Fred’, the first season he’ll be looking over his shoulder for the grumpy old guy who used to live there where he himself has decided to move in, but in the second and any successive years he will be far more intimately familiar with the territory and as a result wise to the whereabouts of the tasty bits from harvest time in which serve as the foundational nutrition which begin the subsequent development of the next head once the velvet begins its journey skywards.

Nice first buck to take, I’m sure you’ll have been just as excited as I was myself back in May 1983 as I yet recall, albeit having begun with stalking the does the previous winter. I hope you enjoy the time spent observing and learning about the lovely roe deer and its ways as much as the rest of us, and permit them a look at life for a duration you yourself might desire, were the hunter to become the hunted - this one fits that category well, so congratulations.

 

[HonestJohn]

5 years,10 months and two weeks give or take

 

[sh1kar]

Be interested in skull weight when cleaned up
S

 

[Nickb]

Older. The fact that he is clean at the beginning of April and showing a touch of colour on the antlers, suggests that it’s been a few weeks since he has been clean of velvet and well past the colourless stage;

Length of front tines relative to the rest of the antler length is a trait which increases relatively with age;

Sloping coronets with a clear gap between these, coupled with possibly one antler possibly appearing to be slightly advanced compared to the other when viewed from the side or above (‘marching head’)? This is an older beast trait, it would require a more careful look from said angles;

A look at the teeth, both the lower incisors and the molar wear can usually indicate age (to compare with others from your immediate area, so over time your perception of tooth wear (irrespective of sex) and will come with experience, also the relative ‘wear’ and relative roughness eg around the eye sockets, where the jaw muscles attach to the lower jaw, the central skull suture ( which develops more elaboration over time) will also help when visible if the trophy is retained and the skull is boiled - the meat on an older head being also tougher and requiring slightly more boiling time than a younger head will all serve to indicate relative age of animal;

The winter coat is held on to for longer among older animals when compared to younger brethren, the younger beast being first to show patches of summer coat in springtime, the pic suggests he’s still very much in winter coat; the colour around the eyes and lower jaw in the pic also suggest to me that he is older rather than middle aged.

I’d put him in the 5-7 year category personally, you can be pretty sure his eventual replacement will be a bold but cautious 3 year old, which will take a couple of seasons in the territory of ‘old Fred’ to become the new ‘Old Fred’, the first season he’ll be looking over his shoulder for the grumpy old guy who used to live there where he himself has decided to move in, but in the second and any successive years he will be far more intimately familiar with the territory and as a result wise to the whereabouts of the tasty bits from harvest time in which serve as the foundational nutrition which begin the subsequent development of the next head once the velvet begins its journey skywards.

Nice first buck to take, I’m sure you’ll have been just as excited as I was myself back in May 1983 as I yet recall, albeit having begun with stalking the does the previous winter. I hope you enjoy the time spent observing and learning about the lovely roe deer and its ways as much as the rest of us, and permit them a look at life for a duration you yourself might desire, were the hunter to become the hunted - this one fits that category well, so congratulations.

Spot on

 

[Polar Lynx]

Or, pull out one of the molars, clean it and then cut it with a Dremel. Then count the annual rings using a magnification glass.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Hey folks, got my first buck on the ground yesterday, still relatively new to stalking and have never been able to take a buck on my permission before and as such am not adept at aging, wondering people’s thoughts? My guess was 3 or 4, but could be way off.

It’s late middle aged / old that's the correct term

 

[Smellydog]

Bet he could tell a yarn or two if he could speak.

 

[Chris Richardson]

As @Freeforester says and older boy id reckon

 

[wellyboot]

We don't age deer into years. We cannot be that accurate. Unless it is a known animal, ie. Tagged at birth, in a farmed situation

Deer are aged into one of 4 age classes or groups....

Kid/fawn/calf

Young

Mature

Old

As a few people have suggested he is most definitely in the early old class but not old, old. The roof coronets are the big give away and the width of the skull between his eye sockets.

If you could see the wear on his lower jaw it would absolutely corroborate the same story...

Tooth sectioning is very hard and requires a bit more than a dremel and magnifying glass... to see the difference between the summer/autumn cementocyte layer and the acellular winter/spring layer is pretty hard and our milder winters seem to make the sharp definition between the seasonal layers even harder to see.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

We don't age deer into years. We cannot be that accurate. Unless it is a known animal, ie. Tagged at birth, in a farmed situation

Deer are aged into one of 4 age classes or groups....

Kid/fawn/calf

Young

Mature

Old

As a few people have suggested he is most definitely in the early old class but not old, old. The roof coronets are the big give away and the width of the skull between his eye sockets.

If you could see the wear on his lower jaw it would absolutely corroborate the same story...

Tooth sectioning is very hard and requires a bit more than a dremel and magnifying glass... to see the difference between the summer/autumn cementocyte layer and the acellular winter/spring layer is pretty hard and our milder winters seem to make the sharp definition between the seasonal layers even harder to see.

Amen

 

[TheOldTool]

Cracking buck, hope you will be keeping the head?

 

[Heym SR20]

Difficult from a picture, but he is a mature old boy.

Key is behaviour before you shot him. An old buck will have slopping hind quarters, plenty of middle age spread around the belly, hunched shoulders and carry its head a bit low.

A buck in its prime will be built like a boxer, big shoulders, pert bum and head held high.

You also want to have a look at its teeth, especially back molars and level of wear.

Search you tube. Franz Albrecht has done several videos on ageing roe bucks.

If it was my ground I would have left this buck alone. He is probably pretty dominant and holding a territory, and thus keeping incoming younger bucks away. I would have kept an eye on him and taken later in the season.

Flip side of shooting him now is that a) you have a good trophy, and b) you will have plenty of youngsters coming to take his place hence more opportunities over next couple of months.

Joy of having your own ground is that you have the opportunity to get to know your animals on the ground and make informed choices as to what to take.

 

[vulpes vulpes]

That's a cracking buck for your first one...well done.
Get the head mounted and enjoy the venison, nevermind how old he was, one things for sure he isn't getting any older.

 

[Dickie]

Whatever it’s age it isn’t getting any older for sure.

 

[SDSRoe]

That's a cracking buck for your first one...well done.
Get the head mounted and enjoy the venison, nevermind how old he was, one things for sure he isn't getting any older.

Thanks vulpes, I’m super happy with him, have been seeing him out and about for the last few months

 

[SDSRoe]

Difficult from a picture, but he is a mature old boy.

Key is behaviour before you shot him. An old buck will have slopping hind quarters, plenty of middle age spread around the belly, hunched shoulders and carry its head a bit low.

A buck in its prime will be built like a boxer, big shoulders, pert bum and head held high.

You also want to have a look at its teeth, especially back molars and level of wear.

Search you tube. Franz Albrecht has done several videos on ageing roe bucks.

If it was my ground I would have left this buck alone. He is probably pretty dominant and holding a territory, and thus keeping incoming younger bucks away. I would have kept an eye on him and taken later in the season.

Flip side of shooting him now is that a) you have a good trophy, and b) you will have plenty of youngsters coming to take his place hence more opportunities over next couple of months.

Joy of having your own ground is that you have the opportunity to get to know your animals on the ground and make informed choices as to what to take.

He was a little large around the middle for sure, I’ve got a number of younger bucks (smaller in the head department at least) that come through, I thought he was a good one to take but also felt that maybe from a management standpoint I should be taking one of yearlings first, it’s quite hard for me (a newer stalker) to know how to approach the management, I know I have an over population, so I’m trying to be cautious on what I take out so I’m glad to hear this chap has and plenty of opportunity to pass his genes on

 

[SDSRoe]

Cracking buck, hope you will be keeping the head?

Absolutely

 

[SDSRoe]

Older. The fact that he is clean at the beginning of April and showing a touch of colour on the antlers, suggests that it’s been a few weeks since he has been clean of velvet and well past the colourless stage;

Length of front tines relative to the rest of the antler length is a trait which increases relatively with age;

Sloping coronets with a clear gap between these, coupled with possibly one antler possibly appearing to be slightly advanced compared to the other when viewed from the side or above (‘marching head’)? This is an older beast trait, it would require a more careful look from said angles;

A look at the teeth, both the lower incisors and the molar wear can usually indicate age (to compare with others from your immediate area, so over time your perception of tooth wear (irrespective of sex) and will come with experience, also the relative ‘wear’ and relative roughness eg around the eye sockets, where the jaw muscles attach to the lower jaw, the central skull suture ( which develops more elaboration over time) will also help when visible if the trophy is retained and the skull is boiled - the meat on an older head being also tougher and requiring slightly more boiling time than a younger head will all serve to indicate relative age of animal;

The winter coat is held on to for longer among older animals when compared to younger brethren, the younger beast being first to show patches of summer coat in springtime, the pic suggests he’s still very much in winter coat; the colour around the eyes and lower jaw in the pic also suggest to me that he is older rather than middle aged.

I’d put him in the 5-7 year category personally, you can be pretty sure his eventual replacement will be a bold but cautious 3 year old, which will take a couple of seasons in the territory of ‘old Fred’ to become the new ‘Old Fred’, the first season he’ll be looking over his shoulder for the grumpy old guy who used to live there where he himself has decided to move in, but in the second and any successive years he will be far more intimately familiar with the territory and as a result wise to the whereabouts of the tasty bits from harvest time in which serve as the foundational nutrition which begin the subsequent development of the next head once the velvet begins its journey skywards.

Nice first buck to take, I’m sure you’ll have been just as excited as I was myself back in May 1983 as I yet recall, albeit having begun with stalking the does the previous winter. I hope you enjoy the time spent observing and learning about the lovely roe deer and its ways as much as the rest of us, and permit them a look at life for a duration you yourself might desire, were the hunter to become the hunted - this one fits that category well, so congratulations.

Thank you, I’m am over the moon with him, I’m wondering if I should have left him until later in the year as others have suggested, as now I’ve potentially opened the door to troublesome youngsters . I had been watching him for the past few months and enjoying being out with them, the land owner and myself are very much in the same page which is great, so there is no pressure to remove too many, I’m very much looking forward to seeing fawns on the ground again, 100% my favourite time of year and one where I’m tempted to take the camera for a walk rather than the rifle

 

[Heym SR20]

He was a little large around the middle for sure, I’ve got a number of younger bucks (smaller in the head department at least) that come through, I thought he was a good one to take but also felt that maybe from a management standpoint I should be taking one of yearlings first, it’s quite hard for me (a newer stalker) to know how to approach the management, I know I have an over population, so I’m trying to be cautious on what I take out so I’m glad to hear this chap has and plenty of opportunity to pass his genes on

My basic rule, which learnt from a couple of very experienced stalkers who had both built very good herds of deer that attracted top quality stalking (£20k for the week with the lodge and a stag a day in the 1990s), was to focus your attention on

1) shooting any deer that are poor quality and small in size.

2) leave decent yearlings and youngsters - they will produce good carcasses and breeding stock. They may produce good heads

3) females, focus on the ones without followers or those with poor quality followers.

4) leave well alone the decent dominant males and females. They control the behaviour of all the other deer and pass that knowledge down.

Spend a lot of time just looking and getting to know the deer. With Roe, many will have quite distinctive markings around the throat. Note these as they remain with the animal all its life, and are often passed onto offspring. Like people, you will learn to recognise them.

Listen as well and observe terratories - typically marked by fraying etc

Once you have a good idea of numbers on your ground, and in the surrounding areas you can plan the cull better. Typically you need to take out 20 to 25% of the deer population per annum to keep it stable. Some will be hit on the roads - keep an eye on this.

Don’t be fooled by winter, early spring when Roe group up on the only available feeding. Perfectly possible for all the deer in locality to be in the same spot at the same time.

Richard Prior has written a number of excellent books on the subject.

Of course the alternative is just to take down is brown approach - shoot anything on sight. And in five years time when nothing is there, walk away.